Where's the WOOD?
Sorry, gang, but I'm going to disagree. How many of you noticed that the stories of people saying how "rickety" a wooden coaster was overheard while *standing in line* for that coaster?!? I've overheard such things and its usually used as a tactic to scare someone in their group. It has much less to do with a "GP perception" and much more to do with economics. As they age, steel coasters just take less money to maintain.
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2002 - the year of IB's LoCoSuMo!!
2 years ago, I was a good example of a GPer. Ghostrider opened up only a few miles from my home, but I never rode it until I "became an enthusiast" because it was not as big as Colossus, which was not all that good, IMO.
It would be difficult, but not impossible to market a non-record breaking woodie in a major park. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE small/medium sized woodies now, but the average parkgoer is not impressed.
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Nothing... NOTHING... can prepare you for... the Fourth Dimension!
Ture 'moosh, steel DOES cost a lot less to maintain, but it also requires a huge outlay up front, while smaller parks (Silverwood, IB, HW) can build a wooden coaster and have income to help defray operating expenses for maintenance/upkeep.
I think the shortage of wood this year is partially due to the scarcity of smaller parks still operating, while the "big" parks have their wood in place and merely need to do maintenance....what I don't understand is why they aren't actually DOING that needed maintenance....(well, some ARE, and that's why I go to SRM...:))
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It's March, but the Madness is over in Mudville, Mighty U-D has struck out...
If you can't laugh at yourself, at least stop laughing at ME!
Chuck: I'm going to have to catagorically disagree with EVERYTHING you just said (a rarity even for me ;)).
1. Of the parks that I went to last year that had both woodies and steelies, with the exception of PKI, BY FAR, the longest lines were for a steel coaster. This included a park that added a steel coaster last (SFGAdv) and a park that added a woodie last (HersheyPark).
2. I think the only reason woodies remain popular is because there is no woodie to "upstage" them. I mean, when you have GASM-II and Medusa in the same park, the "newness" factor is going to drive people to Medusa over GASM-II. But I bet you if they put in a new woodie, the lines for Rotting Lumber would evaporate. PLUS, woodies tend to be smaller so they dont seem as scary as the big loopers. ADDITIONALLY, and I wish I could locate the article, but there is reseach that shows that adding a loop to a coaster significantly decreases the number of people who are willing to ride it (I guess ppl dont like going upside down).
3. I dont think there has been any woodie *trend*. 2000 was a fluke. Wont happen again anytime soon. Anyway, since hyper style coasters can give most of the sensations of woodies with the added bonus of lower ongoing costs (labor in the US is awfully high) and higher marketability potential, I dont see why a park that could afford the inital cost would NOT choose steel over wood.
4. Yes, the compaines *may* be smaller, but that isnt necessarily reflective of their output potential. Let's take the *fluke* year of 2000 for example. B&M (a *big* steel company) had six (6) coasters open that year (Kraken, B:KF, Katun, G5, Medusa (west), S:KC). Conversely, CCI (a *tiny* wood company) had SEVEN (7) coasters open that year (Medusa (Mexico), Boulder Dash, Hurricane, The Legend, Villain, BOSS, Mega Zeph). Still think the wood companies cant "pump 'em out"?. And I dont buy the "customization" bit either. When you look at what B&M had to do with S:KC, what Morgan did with Phantom's Revenge and what Intamin did with Millennium Force I think steelies can be just as "custom" as woodies. Not to mention that GCI just plunked down a clone of ROAR-East in the form of ROAR-West (It all depends on what the park wants).
5. Yes, but lets look at those expenditures in relation to the size budget the two companies have to work with. I'm *sure* that a 20 mil expenditure would virtually *break* Holiday World, but it's hardly a drop in the bucket for PKI. Heck Paramount spends as much on a flat ride (Top Scan) as it cost to build Raven. Why? Because it made sense based on the budgets they had to work with. Discussing "absolute values" is not germane to this situation. "Relative" statistics are the more useful tool here.
lata,
jeremy
--who will likely ride only one new for 2002 coaster this year: a steelie...Roller Soaker!
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I can fix anything.....where is the duct tape?
Mamoosh: I have heard people saying that a woodie is old and rickety and is about to topple over. before I was an enthusiast I heard this and paid very little attention because I considered the source: my friends. now I'm not bashing my friends, but what the hell do they know about coasters? if its dangerous then it won't be standing. if the park doesn't take it down then they'll have patrons and the government screaming down their throats. any person with half a brain would realize that if the ride was really dangerous then they wouldn't be standing in line.
Soggy: Viper was and still is one of the most successful coasters at SFGA. in case you don't know, Viper is a Cyclone type ride. one of the oldest layouts in the book and its one of the most successful coasters at one of SF's largest parks. right there is proof that a woodie doesn't have to be a record breaker to be loved by the GP. you can push a mid-sided woodie by saying that its the meanist, toughest, wildest, etc. ride in the (put region here). its not really lying because those are just someone's opinions, but it makes the coaster seem like this great thing. I'm not into marketing so I really don't know what could be done, but it is possible to push a mid-sized coaster to the point of huge success.
if Earl Hebner is able to walk out of Canada alive then anything's possible.
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-Bob
Knott's Berry Farm Cuba ~South Park
"Your proctologist called, he found your head!" ~Jerry "The King" Lawler
Jeremy, we are all entitled to our opinions but I will stick to my guns,
Woodies are more fun and keep a base longer than most steels.
Im also quite possitive that a woodie can be retracked and maintained for far less than steel in the long run.
People keep forgetting that some of those steel coaster wheels cost upward of $400 apiece and in some cases as much as $1,200 As rideman pointed out a year or two ago, Many of Beast many year old trains still had original running gear and I doubt that many of any steel coaster trains wheels last even a season, I've personally witnessed 5 tire changes in one day at PKI on Face off and vortex and as many a 6 tire changes on Millie in one day.
Now if we add daily maintence, Yes a woodie is far more expensive in that manner, Track pins X 20-40 at $10-$20 each, a person or two taking 2-3hrs to check and fix, That all adds up but remember if a steel coaster has problems such as Anacondas weird area, I wonder just how much theve spent fixing that part alone?
Chuck saying Each $400 wheel could replace about 30ft of track.
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Charles Nungester
167 coasters and hopes to be over 200 by the end of 2002 :)
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ALF is cool said:
Also, steel coasters can last longer (with proper care) than most woodies. Granted if a woody is properly taken care of, it can last forever. But, you have to replace wood, they often need retracked and so on.-----------------
Yeah, I know of a ton of Steelies older than Cyclone, LTD, Wildcat, Thunderbolt, Phoenix, Screechin' Eagle.
I think these rides could have been rebuilt 5 times for the initial cost of a Big Steel, We are just begining to see steels that are ageing and getting massive work or taken down.
Sure a steel will most likely outlast a woodies 5-10 year track life but by how much? At 17 years it was deemed un cost effective to keep up A togo standup. At about 7 years Drachen Fire was closed, Orient express has had massive trackwork in the last couple years, and there are not alot of Antons left!
Steel last longer?
Chuck, who only sees some of those scenic railways lasting longer than a good maintained woodie because they have railroad track :)
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Charles Nungester
167 coasters and hopes to be over 200 by the end of 2002 :)
Chuck, stick to your guns if you wish, but I'd make sure I cleaned and oiled them first to ensure that they do not jam in your hand (or even worse, backfire).
1) Woodies being "more fun" is a COMPLETLEY subjective claim, one that could not be backed up even if I asked you to. For that reason alone, I should not respond to it. However, I *still* submitt that the claim is false. Again, at parks such as SFWoA, CP, SFGAdv, SFGAm, BGT, HersheyPark, SFA, and PKD I've time and time again seen the masses flock to the big steel coasters rather than the woodies. If the "general sentiment" is that woodies are "more fun" explain to me why S:ROS gets half an hour lines and ROAR has waits of about 7 minutes? More over, I'm still not convinced about this "base" thing. If you go to SFGAm and see that Iron Wolf, B:TR and Viper all have comparable line, if you go to PKD and see both Anaconda and Grizzly are walk ons, if you got to HersheyPark and see SuperDooperLooper has a line longer than comment, then I dont see how one could make such a claim.
2) Just from the sheer amount of trackage that needs attention I think that a woodie and a steelie OF COMPARABLE SIZE would show the woodie to be much more costly. You see, that's something that has yet to be pointed out in this debate. Basically, you been, say, comparing Raven to NITRO. The only thing the two have in common is that they both go through woods. But when you start talking about the cost of Son of Beast v. Magnum or Mean Streak v. Raging Bull or even Shivering Timbers and Steel Eel I *bet* those "long term cost" numbers will show a significant advantage to the steelies.
3) (now addressing your latest post) Again, you are talking about the cost of a BIG steel v a LITTLE woodie (get yo minds outta da gutta ;)). What was the initial cost of Sonny compared with Millie? It *better* had been hella less to come out ahead in the long run.
4) But what about some of the oldest tubular steel coasters? Matterhorn has been running fine for what, 40+ years now? Even if you had to re track the entire ride, that's just ONCE in 40 years. How many times would a woodie have to be completely retracked by then? How many 40 yr old woodies still have ANY original wood left? Look at (formerly) Knott's Corkscrew? No significant trouble there and it's even been moved! Any problems with the older mine rides (SFoT, SFoG, CP)? Nah, didnt think so. The rides you mention like Drachen Fire and Anaconda just had *issues* from the begining. I can site woodies that have undergone *major* reprofiles as well (Wild One, Rattler, Colossus, Riverside Cyclone, Pippen/Thunderbolt...). True enough, off hand I can not think of a woodie that was scrapped *entirely* simply due to poor design/maintenance, but had this been 1999, *you* could not have thought of any steelies either. This is a new phenomenon and I think it's based more on POOR DESIGN (by todays standards) than something inherently wrong with working with steel.
5) As for Anton's coasters and the TOGOs the parts just werent available. Since Arrow still makes replacement parts for their coasters, you'll see Arrows around for a good long while. But with TOGO and Anton, no one is fabricating those types of parts (see the Intamin Triple Wheels) so yes, they *did* become more expensive to upkeep. I *guess* you'll always be able to go to Home Depot and get two by fours, so I *might* be willing to conceed that point.
Bottom line is this, show me a woodie and a steelie of comparable height and thrill factor and we'll *really* see how the numbers hash out.
lata,
jeremy
--no funny sig needed
Ok, here's the thing:
1. Wooden coasters and steel coasters are completely different animals.
That's really all there is to it. As we all know, parks tend to build both, with the steel coasters in much higher numbers. This can easily be attributed to the fact that wooden coasters offer much less variation within the hardware itself (there just aren't many gimmicks to be had) and there is in general much more to be done to keep woodies in good condition. Here's another thing, though:
2. If the cost of doing mantinence on a wooden coaster was truly prohibitive to building wooden coasters, parks wouldn't build them.
And as we all know, parks do build them. And not just smaller parks with relatively smaller budgets than the big players. The Six Flags/Premier Company has certainly built a slew in the past 10 years. Obviously, if parks felt like wooden coasters were bad long term investments then they wouldn't build them. (Given, I'm sure that many of the larger woodies have been a major pain the rear end.) That's simple because:
3. Parks want to make money. And lots of it.
Upper execs in parks would never say "Hey, I'd be willing to take a pay cut so we can build a wooden coaster," would they? So obviously, parks feel like the best deal for them is to concentrate on bringing high-tech, state of the art steel coasters to us relatively often, and often if we're lucky, they thrown in a high-tech, state of the art wooden coaster in. They wouldn't do that if they thought the general perception of wooden coasters is negative because:
4. People don't get off a coaster and say it sucked just because its wooden or steel, usually they say it sucked because it really does.
I've ridden a butt load of bad steel coasters, I've ridden a butt load of bad wooden coasters. Personally, I think the public knows a bad coaster when they ride it, which is why they usually don't have long lines. But arguing about it using different examples from different parks isn't productive because:
5. Each park you're ever going to is going to be vastly different from the next.
At PKI, The Beast has a huge reputation. Hell, within a 4 hour drive The Beast has a huge reputation, and its not because its made of wood, or made of steel. Its because its a legend, and its usually going to have one of the longest lines in the park, except for the lower capacity Face Off, Drop Zone, and Fof. And also, all of those rides are much, much newer than The Beast. Does that mean that wooden coasters are some how inherently "better" than steel coasters and free fall rides. No, that just means that wood massive wooden coaster has had extreme success at one park. And how many coasters from 1979 are still that popular and still in the fore front of the public's mind?
At SFStL, on a hot saturday in July, people were coming off night rides like I have never seen. It was like they were having an epiphany. They were whooping and hollering all the way down the exit ramp, and giving eachother high fives, and I heard at least 10 people utter "that was the best coaster ever" from their lips. How many times have I ever seen that before? Never, ever, ever.
Flash over to the people getting night rides on Ninja: was the same thing happening? Um, no. Is it because wooden coasters are better, and steel coasters are worse? No, its because in this particular case, The Boss is a good coaster, and Ninja is a bad one. (completely subjective, i know.) Half the time, people aren't even going to worry about what a coaster is made out of. They just want to get on without a long wait, and then get on another ride or get some chow or something.
6. Also, which coaster has the longest line only is going to tell you...which coaster has the longest line.
If Great Bear has a longer line than Lightening Racer, that can tell you a lot of things, but its a very big jump from "Great Bear has a longer line" to "the public thinks Great Bear is better" or "Great Bear was a better investment for Hershey."
Bottom line:
They are completely different investments, and if either was a bad one, it wouldn't be built. Simple as that. Do we really need to discuss this any more?
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If the shoe fits, find another one.
I have another... Psyclone at SFMM. (same basic size and layout, different builder) Oh wait, that one is horrible and never had a long line. They had to place a new record-breaking steel coaster right next to it to breathe life back into that section of the park.
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Nothing... NOTHING... can prepare you for... the Fourth Dimension!
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God, I love these debates......and for once, this one is NOT a flame war!!! This is good, ol' fashion, general buzz....like grandma usta make. Thanks!
2Hostyl....we have disagreed so many times, it's baffling. GREAT rebuttle. Good stuff, but watch what you say about the "woodies", or we will have to begin the "this water is cold......and DEEP!" stories. The same goes for Moosh, Soggy and Jedi. All great points. But: And here's where I get confused on the arguement...
a) I don't know the exact costs of these rides, but here is what I thought I read: If the Villian cost $4-5 million and Batman: KF cost $12-14 million. And, if it costs the Villian $500,000 a year to be maintained and Batman, $50,000 a year........ Then this should happen over a 5 year period:
Villian: $4,000,000 + (5)($500,000) = $6,500,000 AND... Batman: $12,000,000 + (5)($50,000) = $12,250,000
Doesn't that mean, that's it's more cost effiecient for the park to have a few more woodies? Of course those numbers are meaningless because I have no idea what it costs to maintain a coaster, but since no one knew from my last post, I threw some in... Does anyone know a relative number for these costs? ----Anyways, what I'm talking about is this: I expected about 3-5 new woodies for 2002, not 2. Of course, I'm a woodie fan, and know they are dying out, but why in 2002? 1996 to 2001, had a huge increase. If cost is a problem, then woodies would be the way to go, right? Or is the GP just needing the ultimate thrills that nouveau steelies represent?
And yes, dear Ravenguy, we HAVE to discuss this further......
Woody said:
Of course, I'm a woodie fan, and know they are dying out, but why in 2002?
Because they aren't dying out. Not as many coasters are being built in 2002 as in 2000, so therefore, not as many wooden coasters are being built. Its as simple as that. Wooden coasters aren't dying out. We are living right now in the Golden Age of wooden coasters, and wooden coasters are only going to die as fast as steel coasters.
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If the shoe fits, find another one.
ravenguy: the cost of maintaning woodies isn't prohibitive, but there is a cost to keep them up. therefore having 12-13 woodies could get quite expensive. plus the layouts would probably start looking like each other after a while. with steel, you get more variety. you can put a suspended coaster here, an inverted there, a stand-up, a hyper, a giga. and until I hear from Rideman, I've got to believe that maintaning 10 steel coasters is cheaper than maintaning 10 wooden coasters. however, having a handful of woodies isn't going to make a park go bankrupt which is why I said that most parks could use a couple more woodies.
soggy: from what I hear Psyclone isn't the fault of advertising, it just plain sucks. there's nothing you can do with a coaster that just plain sucks. the failure of Psyclone lies in the designer's hands. so, obviously, if you're going to build a mid-sized woodie, don't contact that particular designer or you might end up with Psyclone's long lost cousin.
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-Bob
Knott's Berry Farm Cuba ~South Park
"Your proctologist called, he found your head!" ~Jerry "The King" Lawler
Well, I don't think I have ever ridden a woodie that wasn't great at some time. Most of the ones that are not that good are that way for a reason, either braked, or removed elements or bad trains make them not as good as they once were or could be.
I still say that if you have ridden on B&M looper, You basically have ridden them all (With exceptions) Same with Arrow loopers, There isn't much difference to me but I still ride them for the experience.
Now wood on the otherhand can have two identical coasters and be totally different rides, There's Cyclones that are great, and some that are not even close.
The old video footage I have of Collosus shows a great coaster, not the lame ride I hear about nowdays.
And Jeremy, I have to dissagree with you about SFWOA, Villain is the most popular ride in the park.
Chuck, who has a prefference toward wood and would take Cornball over any looper period
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Charles Nungester
167 coasters and hopes to be over 200 by the end of 2002 :)
coasterjedi said:
ravenguy: the cost of maintaning woodies isn't prohibitive....
I don't understand how you are disagreeing with me.
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If the shoe fits, find another one.
"I still say that if you have ridden on B&M looper, You basically have ridden them all (With exceptions) Same with Arrow loopers, There isn't much difference to me but I still ride them for the experience."
That's why you don't see 8 of them in one park. Its also why you don't see 8 wooden coasters in one park.
"Now wood on the otherhand can have two identical coasters and be totally different rides, There's Cyclones that are great, and some that are not even close."
First of all, that isn't a consideration by the parks. Most people don't go to more than 2 parks a year, and have no knowledge of other similar rides across the country. Also, as far as I can tell, none of the Cyclone based rides are actually clones of eachother, or clones of the original.
"And Jeremy, I have to dissagree with you about SFWOA, Villain is the most popular ride in the park."
Do you have statistics from the park that show this, or are you just guessing?
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If the shoe fits, find another one.
Woody, I *know* you're guessing, but I feel your estimates are good for illustrative purposes. Steel IS cheaper to maintain, we can all agree on that. But as time passes, the wooden coaster is bringing in money (and money becomes less valuable due to inflation). So the initial outlay IS something larger parks/chains can afford more readily....
More wood for EVERYONE...PS, heading to IoA right now, bye !
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