Where'd Cedar Fair come from?
"Coaster Playa said: Apparently you can't read or rhyme, Swoosh Shady--I said KCS-Mall of America."
First of all I never said I could rap. For some reason you were the one that started refering to me as "Swoosh Shaddy," have no idea why - that's your perogative though.
"Coaster Playa said: You know, the other CF park in Minnesota that draws more peeps than both the 'of Funs combined. When you add the couple of new rides that got added there too, the MN vs. MO issue gets even more laughable. "
Now I am confused, I thought that this was about WOF and VF. Hmm maybe you are the one that is confused. The point that was made (and still stands), VF has no competition. Even KCS isn't competition. People go to MOA, not KCS. If you are saying that every single person that goes to the mall spends money in KCS, you are delusional. If you want real competition come to Missouri.
"Coaster Playa said: And again--it's the park's call to do what they want with the money. If VF doesn't choose to expand the waterpark with the big budgets that they get and WOF does, it's their call."
Don't you think that maybe WOF looks at the ROI for both parks, and perhaps this is the best course of action to help infiltrate growth in both catergories? To me it seems as if VF, pretends that that White Water Country doesn't exist, and with such a small land mass to work with - I wonder why they even bother keeping it. I'm sure the ROI can't be the reason.
"Coaster Playa said: If WOF blows their budget on a Boomerang that does nothing for attendance instead of saving up for something better, that's their blown call. If VF keeps getting bigger budgets they're doing something right. If WOF hasn't been able to get one together in five years, what does that tell you?"
It tells me that since 2000, the park has gone without a new ride. Yes I do realize they may have gotten Trashcan: The Ride or a few new buildings - but no new rides. Also let me tell you this, while VF has been penny pinching, WOF has been adding to the overall feel to the park. They are striving to make it a "well rounded" park. Also they care about OOF as well, and they continually strive to make it a better park as well. WOF uses their budgets each year. They ADD to the park each year. VF doesn't, and that's the bottom line. You will get more ROI if you INVEST it into the park as opposed to blowing it all in one year.
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SWOOSH
(TPO)ThemeParksOnline.ORG
(MIG)MidwestInfoGuide
*** This post was edited by Swoosh on 1/22/2003. ***
Yes, they say they are like buttholes. everyone has one and they all stink :)
Your first paragraph is what I disagree with the most in 'Playas posts. They are not getting larger budgets, they are just saving them up and using them at once, that's all.
I do agree with what you said about the gate and etc. The bathrooms are being upgraded. The newer ones - like that one by Mamba show what they will all look like soon.
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SWOOSH
(TPO)ThemeParksOnline.ORG
(MIG)MidwestInfoGuide
Actually VF has only "saved up" a total of 3 times in recent memory. Those year being 98, 01, and 02. I think that by using 98's money to save up they afforded Mad Mouse, but they received Power Tower not because they saved up for it, but because it had been a while since they'd gotten a big cap year. (Wild Thing '96)
Using Playa's logic VF has saved up for their new ride (Steel Venom) which would be considered a similar situation as the 98 season when VF saved and in 99 got Mad Mouse. Playa's is figuring that since Cedar Fair still gave VF a 10 million plus cap year in 2000 for Power Tower and a lot of rides for one of their kiddie areas then that 2004 or 2005 should be similar to 2000 as 2003 is similar to 1999.
Of couse I might not even be close to hitting the point that CoastaPlaya is trying to make but that's my guess.
Now, how in the heck does this tie in with Worlds of Fun and why should the viewers at home give a rip? Well, it seems that VF and Worlds of Fun are on aprox the same playing field when it comes to handing out money.
So all these people clammering for a big (expensive) ride at Worlds of Fun might get one in 2004, but don't expect to get another one for a while as Worlds prefers to use their 3 million dollar cap every year and wait for their big year while VF is more interested in waiting a couple years to get more big attractions without waiting as long to market but without adding the "little" or "filler" attractions that Worlds has chose to do to build up the park's atmosphere.
In essence it appears that VF is taking the Swing for the Fences technique where they're going to hit more home runs, whereas Worlds of Fun is content with hitting singles and waiting for the rare ocassion to jack one out of the park.
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0-60mph+ in 2.5
Hey--when you say things that make good ol' fashioned common sense, anyone and everyone else can understand what you're talking about.
When you babble in delusional fashion, you tend to babble on your own while others stare in embarrassed silence....know what I mean?
FYI 1996 and 2000 were larger budgets, '02 was not. Translation: VF's still got bullets in the gun, babee. This is gonna be fun.
-'Playa
Swoosh, i agree with you fully. And Playa look for Worlds of Fun to be getting one of your "big additions" it 2004, or 2005.
Ok...let's lay out the picture in dollars (and I must emphasize that these numbers are not concrete for VF, as I do not have much info on their budgets and expenditures for every year...I have tried to find numbers used herein). Let's begin with 1996, as that was the first year WOF was part of the family for the entire season.
1996-VF/Wild Thing/10mil...WOF/Detonator/Ripcord/3 mil.
1997-VF/General/1.5 mil...WOF/BBC/laser/3 mil
1998-VF/Galaxy 1.5...WOF/Mamba/10 mil
1999-VF/Mouse/3 mil...WOF Gen(OOF)Hurricane/3 mil
2000-VF Power/10 mil...WOF/Boomerang/3 mil
2001-VF Gen/1.5 mil...WOF/Camp/3 mil
2002-VF Gen/1.5 mil...WOF/Thunder/4 mil
2003-VF Venom/9.5 mil...WOF/gen (OOF) Paradise/3 mil.
Like I said, these are not concrete. Please correct me if I have omitted or listed incorrect info.
Tally it up, and VF has received 38.5 Million compared to WOF 32 Million....for a difference of 6.5 million
As was said before...money talks.
VF '97 was $3 million and included a new entrance pavilion, bathroom facilities, the Coasters restaurant and a Chance Chaos.
I'm foggy on '98...I think I remember reading a $2 million figure on that season (theater and arcade), but that coulda been hearsay. That non-ride season had more to do with the new Zamperla Hammerhead at KCS-MOA than anything else.
VF '03 was $9 million of which $8.5 million was Steel Venom. Check the finalized cap expense press release.
While VF's '96 cap ex budget was $10 million, there was more to it than the hyper. It also inlcluded a 3-story employee dorm and parking lot and the Ripcord, among other things. To make a long story short--FeelTheStrike's $8 million Mamba figure is closer to reality.
I have no beef with WOF or any other CF sister park. I'd love to see them flourish and succeed. I'd love to see them give me a better reason to visit Kansas City than BBQ. But for the time being, it just ain't happenin'. Hopefully, they'll spend this year working hard to get the basics right so they can justify a good stiff cap budget. As long as they don't get an Impulse coaster...I got one of those already.
-'Playa
*** This post was edited by CoastaPlaya on 1/19/2003. ***
What are you talking about? The "owners" are the unit holders, and the units comprise Cedar Fair, LP.
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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com Rave Cam 1/18
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Making the adjustment for 97 (told ya I wasn't sure) and the .5 mil extra 2003 cancels the .5 mil short for 98.
That leaves us with Valleyfair $40 million....WOF $32 Million. The difference of $8 million is substantial when you are talking about capital and how each park uses it.
During this timeframe both parks got a hyper, tower, RipCord. WOF tower was way cheaper...but there are only two/shorter/4 years earlier. VF added dorms/theatre/Chaos/Mad Mouse/Coasters/entrance as main points. WOF added BBC/Snoopy/Laser Show/Hurricane(OOF)/Thunderhawk/Go Karts(used)/Coasters/Boomerang.
'Playa...did VF lose any rides or attractions during this time? I know Rails, but it was replaced. Also, is IMAX still going for 2003?
The IMAX is still here, the Schwarzkopf mouse was sold to a tiny park in Massachusetts and CP's original Bayern Kurve was retired. I could probably tell you which season it was if I thought hard enough, but I won't because it bums me out.
You're also counting WOF's Ripcord twice. Whazzup wit dat?
-'Playa
*** This post was edited by CoastaPlaya on 1/21/2003. ***
Ok, I have some things to add to the debate
#1 the money for 96 was around 9-10 million.
#2 Mamba cost over 10 million they have never released the final cost and it was over budget.
#3 Cedar Fair does NOT save up for rides (read our dan keller story on www.themeparksonline.org)
#4 Cedar Fair looks at how long it will take to make it back (like Mamba was two years).
#5 We here in Missouri say that you can have your brand new shacks for several years as we continue to get new rides (which continues to not have an off year since CF:LP took over the park)
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SWOOSH
MIG-The Midwest Information Guide [http://sfne.com/~swoosh/]
*** This post was edited by Swoosh on 1/20/2003. ***
Ditto for the Kinzel interview we had. The company has no huge secrets about the way they spend money.
Strike: Yes, no kidding, we're all aware of the fact that they only manage the mall property. That's why every press release indicates they own the parks but "additionally operate" Camp Snoopy. You're still wrong.
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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com Rave Cam 1/18
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Swoosh #1 and #2: Link us to the CF documents proving these assertions. Otherwise, check yourself in somewhere. It's put up or shut up time.
Neither a Morgan hyper--even with the tunnels Mamba lacks--nor a full-sized three-legged PT cost $10 million on their own. You have slipped far past the realm of an overactive imagination and delusional fanboyism into something weird and scary. But then again, you actually think Godsey is an all-knowing industry insider--so I can't say I didn't see this coming...
-'Playa
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The CPlaya 100--6 days, 9 parks, 47 coasters, 2037 miles and a winner.....LoCoSuMo.
*** This post was edited by CoastaPlaya on 1/21/2003. ***
Whoa... what's so unreasonable about his claims? I really don't think the name calling is necessary.
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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com Rave Cam 1/18
DELETED!
$10 million in '96? As a Missourian would say, "You'd have to show me!"
Hey, Jeff--were you a unitholder back then? Do you still have the Annual reports?
-'Playa
(proudly calling Swoosh/DTN8R/Whatever the heck else he's been crazy since 1998)
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The CPlaya 100--6 days, 9 parks, 47 coasters, 2037 miles and a winner.....LoCoSuMo.
*** This post was edited by CoastaPlaya on 1/21/2003. ***
What is your deal CPlaya? I think it has gone beyond just this post and you have developed some sort of problem with me, which I honestly can't understand. Also this information is comin from Jeff Mast, ACE regional rep for Heart-of-America.
And to use your words against you "Apparently you can't read," I already explained what you are demanding.
#2 Mamba cost over 10 million they have never released the final cost and it was over budget.
I think that is pretty black and white, and don't understand what is so "crazy" or "delusional" about that? Cedar Fair budgeted $9-10 million for the 96 season, the costs went over. You have to remember that WOF didn't build MAMBA on a flat plot of land like they did with Wild Thing and Steel Force. There is a natural revine that it was built over -- this adds to construction costs!!! I'm sorry that you don't believe me, but I reverse the challenge, and say prove me wrong - produce documentation that says that my claims are incorrect. Also it was proven that the ROI was regained in two seasons, which is not too bad for an addition like that.
(are you counting URC, RRC, and here in that little snyde comment at the end - if so, you missed a few)
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SWOOSH
MIG-The Midwest Information Guide [sfne.com/~swoosh/]
*** This post was edited by Swoosh on 1/21/2003. ***
Just because I may have been on URC prior to that time doesn't mean I was calling you crazy any earlier .
And just because land may or may be a little flatter doesn't mean construction costs were much lower. VF still had to tread lightly around their existing attractions, reroute the railroad and do a number of other things ya gotta do when you're building around existing facilities as opposed to open land. Designing a longer drop into a ravine doesn't necessarily mean using millions more in steel or labor--excepting swampland in the bayou, perhaps.
If your statement about ROI regained in two seasons is true, that only opens up more disturbing questions for you. Why was CF happy to hand VF $3 million for a new flat the year after WT but only toss WOF hand-me-down go-karts after Mamba? And why haven't we seen a $10 million year down there since? Why?
I don't care if it's Jeff Mast, Jeff Putz or George Bush, Jr.--anyone who isn't actually in the boardroom is idly speculating on the details. What we can see without question is the bottom line results. They speak volumes all by themselves...
-'Playa
(proud beneficiary of the bottom line)
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The CPlaya 100--6 days, 9 parks, 47 coasters, 2037 miles and a winner.....LoCoSuMo.
*** This post was edited by CoastaPlaya on 1/21/2003. ***
Ok...Steel Force has the helix down the hill by the water...so what difference does the revine on Mamba make. If you wanted to make a correct argument, you could have brought up how much land was moved beginning at Mamba plaza, past the forum to the service road. Little was done past the service road. All this was included in the budget already. Also, Mamba's budget was cut short by the elimination of the tunnels. How do I know...I worked there. Then there was the mishap with the lift motor...but that is another story. The lift walk lights are another issue as well (thanks Clayco). Mamba had no real issues with obstacles except for the dirt. The service road just has a little cut through under it.
'Playa, where did I count RC twice? I didn't see it, but then again I certainly could have.
A comment from Mr. Mast (ACE or not) does not constitute fact. You should do what you asked 'Playa to...find it in writing from a reputable source.
*** This post was edited by Matt on 1/21/2003. ***
CoastaPlaya said:
If your statement about ROI regained in two seasons is true, that only opens up more disturbing questions for you. Why was CF happy to hand VF $3 million for a new flat the year after WT but only toss WOF hand-me-down go-karts after Mamba? And why haven't we seen a $10 million year down there since? Why?
We did see a $3million addition the next year, it was called Hurricane Falls and was added to OOF. Also besides the Go-Carts, we added Coasters Cafe and a few new shops here and there. You know if you had been reading the thread, you'd already known that. I think that you have it already set in your mind that you are going to disagree with me before even thinking it over. As for why we haven't received a $10million budget since, that I don't know. I can guess that the slow economy might have something do with it, but also the fact that we haven't really needed that large of a budget to add what we did. I would imagine that another will come within two years.
Matt, Why can't 'Playa find it in writing to prove that what I said was wrong? Also did you not read what I posted above? Obviously not.
I only brought up Jeff, because I am passing along what he has been sending me via emails. He is currently in Orlando and doesn't have time to post on here.
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SWOOSH
MIG-The Midwest Information Guide [sfne.com/~swoosh/]
*** This post was edited by Swoosh on 1/21/2003. ***
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