Where'd Cedar Fair come from?
CoastaPlaya said:Swoosh: Shame on you. You know better! Like Mark Twain said, there's three kinds o' lies...
"And like shooting carp in a bucket" - 'Playa took the bait. I knew you would do it, that's why I posted that. You know I really hope that you can come to VF! when Missy and I travel north this summer, I really do want to meet my "nemesis" first hand.
And here we go again - WOF has had several since '96. '98 - MAMBA, '99 - Hurricane Falls, '00 - Boomerang, '01 - New Land, '02 - New Flat, '03 - Paradise Falls.
I would consider getting something as opposed to nothing as better end of the stick, but "to each his own." ;)
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SWOOSH
(TPO)ThemeParksOnline.ORG
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*** This post was edited by Swoosh on 1/16/2003. ***
I gotta say WOF should just 'suck it up' like VF did between '01 and '02 to get to the major rides quicker.
They've only had one big budget ride (Mamba in '98) but if they choked back on those smaller investments they could get the money without much wrangling. While VF's hyper and PT were big investments for the park, SV actually wasn't. They just held the line on spending for a couple seasons and still have the option to wrangle for big cash later.
I'd much rather have a big PT and an Impulse than a big PT, a new flat, a Boomerang and a new theater/arcade/something else. It's just too bad the WOF folks don't see things the same way...
-'Playa
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The CPlaya 100--6 days, 9 parks, 47 coasters, 2037 miles and a winner.....LoCoSuMo.
*** This post was edited by CoastaPlaya on 1/16/2003. ***
No Magnumforce. There are many "Partners" in the organization. I think all of the General Managers are considered "Partners".
The annual report contains all of that information and will be coming out in the next month or two for all unitholders. I hate that I have to wait to do my taxes but so it goes.
The unit holders recieve "distributions" as opposed to dividends. The so called tax sheild is simply a return of capital, in the range of 80%, that reduces your cost basis yearly. That means even if you sell it for what you bought it for in 5 years you will have to pay a capital gains tax!
The tax form is the infamous K-1 that does not arrive to the unitholder until late march, 3/30 is the deadline I think. For those who have never seen a K-1, you dont want to. I have been working with investments for 8 years and I still have trouble figuring those darn things out. FUN is a good company and a decent investment if its in a tax qualified account (IRA)!
The General Partner of Cedar Fair, is The Cedar Fair Management Company, which was formed in 1983 and became publicly traded in 1987. The limited partners hold a 99.9% interest in income, loses and distributions. The General Parners intrest is therefore 0.1%
The officers of the CFMC are the respective corporate management and General Managers.
From Cedar Fair Annual Report
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http://kneebush.com/
Dave's Trips
There should definely be Cedar Fair parks in the Roller Coaster Tycoon 2 Expansion Pack! : )
"I've got a train to run here...........BEAM ME UP!"
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Keeping Youngstown Living Exciting
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Coming in 2003-The Spawn Of Magnum!
*** This post was edited by MagnumForce on 1/17/2003. ***
'Playa -
What exactly is your definition of "big budget" attractions? You keep mentioning the hypers, but then you throw in PT - you know we do have one of those too. :) The thing with WOF is, they know that they need to do certain things to the park before they can add the next major coaster. 1998 was almost a disaster with parking and just overall overflow in the park. The park just couldn't handle the crowds (they could of if HME had still been in charge, the park constantly was getting about 1mill each year with them at the helm, but that is another story). I just don't think CF:LP knew how to run a park in this section of the country (and they still don't), they seem to be under the presumption that people here don't travel to other parks in the state - and that big attractions at other parks actually will pull customers away. I hate to say this, but I almost imagine that WOF will be a ghost town this year with a new SDC park opening in the state, and no new attraction being added this year to the theme park.
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SWOOSH
(TPO)ThemeParksOnline.ORG
(MIG)MidwestInfoGuide
I know you're not bringing up the Stumpinater, are you? That's a much shorter, much less expensive unit that's missing a leg. It uses as much steel as 1 1/2 legs of a full-sized model...and it sure didn't cost as much. I'm not saying it isn't a good ride--I'm just saying it doesn't factor in here.
Whine, whimper and grasp for asterisks all you wanna....the fact remains that the only $10 million cap budget year WOF ever got was for Mamba. That's it, that's all. Since their hyper, DP and VF have both been granted another big-budget season and VF 'manufactured' a third.
CF doesn't decide whether they get a 'me-too' Boomerang or an Arrow Mad Mouse--they give 'em a budget and it's up to park management to handle (or mishandle) things from there. CF didn't tell them to have a 'free fireman' day or 'season passholder free buddy' day. They just give 'em the rope and let them climb it or hang themselves.
BTW, were you aware VF's gate price actually went up last summer without any new rides? Sure did. They also streamlined the ad budgets by consolidating print and coupon discounts for KCS-MOA and VF to the same partners--enhancing the public's awareness of the discounts and keeping the costs down all at the same time. After all, what good is a 'come to my park free' deal if no one knows about it? Or worse yet, when you have to dump more and more cash into getting them in the door free? That's what you call mismanagement.
The SFWOA debacle has ably demonstrated that dumping wads of cash into a park doesn't make it a winner. KBF is a whiff of a park smaller than VF in a much more crowded market--DLP's down the block, USH and SFMM are within traveling distance and there's plenty of other things to do. They still don't have SFMM's thrills or Mickey Mouse's international draw...and they hold their own anyway.
And how in the heck are you going to tell me WOF couldn't handle 1.2 million visitors? Our little 89-acre park (and trust me--that's stretching to include land occupied by coasters) handles a million-plus every year with a shorter season. I've been to VF with 28,000 people on hand (don't ask) with the parking lot full, the overflow area full and people parking across the street. But once you got in, the crews handled their business. The only coaster with a long. slow line was High Roller (only had one train) --everything else had full queues and waits no longer than a half-hour. If WOF couldn't handle that many people, they shouldn't get any rides that will draw that sort of crowd.
I'd sooner buy a unique Chris Godsey coaster for my backyard than buy the excuse that WOF's attendance is CF's fault.
-'Playa
*** This post was edited by CoastaPlaya on 1/17/2003. ***
Stumpinator huh? I kind of like that name. As much as I hate to, I have to agree with 'Playa. Him and I have gone through the argument before as well....and I learned that there was much more than I could see (or maybe wanted to see) going on in the chain.
I love my homepark, but also know that money & attendance talk. WOF can handle a large attendance. There were several days during the 94/95 seasons where we had 23000+ days (sorry...I don't remember exact numbers but believe we had one 26000+ day). B-K were full, orient grass, C-North grass, Oceans grass were all filled. Zinger (where I was working in 94) had an hour+ line while running 4 trains and the park was completley packed. The difference between then and now, in my opinion, is the employee base. In the good ole' days, we (ride crews) had turnstile wars all the time. We would usually battle Express and Nile would fight Wolf. By doing this, we were increasing our througput, making the lines shorter for our guests, while having fun and not compromising safety. The crews, and not just rides, had great moral and a general wish and desire to help make the park fun and enjoyable. Ride cleanings were more ride parties although both got accomplished. All of this helped to make the park a much better place...back in the HME days.
Today, some of the employees would rather kick you in the shin rather than having to speak to you. There is rarely interaction between the guests and employees. Spielers are quiet and boring, ride crews are (and not all of them) slow and agitated. The whole morale just seems to be low. I don't think this is a a CF thing though. If you look at CP and their crews, they are awesome. Capacity most often rules and they have fun with each other and the guests. Even when we would visit VF each year, their morale seemed to be much better and in turn, had a huge effect on the quality of the park.
Sorry to go off and rant, but WOF's problems are not CF....they have no one to blame but themselves. They must also look at themselves if they wish to change the status quo.
jkpark said:
There should definely be Cedar Fair parks in the Roller Coaster Tycoon 2 Expansion Pack! : )
"I've got a train to run here...........BEAM ME UP!"
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Keeping Youngstown Living Exciting
Cedar Fair, L.P. is not a brand, and they did not sign a contract with Infogrames like Six Flags did.
And now we open the flood gates...this is becoming a tradition 'Playa.
You brought up the question on handling crowds. When HME ran the park there were a lot more vehicles on everything. There were 3 trains on both OExpress and TWolf - there are now only two. There were at least 6-7 boats on Monsoon - there are now 3, if you are lucky, there were more boats on Nile, there were more cars out on Taxi Tour and Autobahn, there was other rides - Zinger gobbled up the crowd, not mention other rides that have been removed and not replaced. There were more shows, there was just more to do when HME was in charge - and they added rides to BOTH parks each year. That is why they got over a million (at just WOF) each year and the reason CFLP can't. HME ran capacity and kept the crowds happy by offering something new each year.
Now your point on attendance is a lot of fun CPlaya, maybe you can chew on this for awhile. WOF does not include OOF's attendance in the overall number, if they did the number would be 1.2 Million or more. Shocking isn't it. Now let's think how much smaller VF's attendance would be without all the water park guests. Also they spend large budgets at OOF including two large investments here recently - Hurricane Falls in 1999 and Paradise Falls here in 2003. My question to you, Playa, is when was the last time a major budget was spent on the water park there at VF! -- that's what I thought.
I love how you call Detonator a stump. This was the largest to date when it was built, AND without it being built, your precious little PT (how original on the name, by the way) would not have been built. Also that same year we received RipCord. I do believe all you got was PT that year - is that correct? That's what I thought.
The fact is, we get millions of dollars in improvements each year, with larger ones thrown in every 3 or so. Don't put off WOF as the "red headed step child of the chain," because we're not. The ops here care about the park as a whole and are working to keep the aesthetics of the park. Last time I looked, it appeared that VF is a concrete jungle. I think I will take WOF's atmosphere and "small crowds (in your opinion)" to VF anyday.
Thanks for playing. BTW - how did you like your pancakes again?
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SWOOSH
(TPO)ThemeParksOnline.ORG
(MIG)MidwestInfoGuide
*** This post was edited by Swoosh on 1/17/2003. ***
All we got was PT! LOL! A ride that dwarfs anything in their sister park. All we got was a $10 million dollar cap year in 2000--you know, more than twice the budget WOF has ever seen since being last in line to get a hyper, remember?
But if you must ask, we got as many new kiddie rides that year (Convoy, Busy Bees, Frog Hopper, some kinda 'fishie' ride and I might have missed one) as WOF got the next year in a rehashed Camp Snoopy too. That and a buttload of landscaping.
And if the separate gate park (OOF) meant that much to CF, wouldn't we see it in the cap budget the park would get? So where's the money? Where's it at? Hellloooooo. Echooooo. Nowhere.
Let's review here in real-life terms: Smaller park with shorter season and larger attendance equals more profits and bigger budgets. Bigger park with longer season with lower attendance equals lower profits and smaller budgets. The sister parks that get the decent cap budgets are the teams that prove they deserve it.
Here's hoping you get a second big cap year before VF gets a fourth...but you better get it before '05. It could get really embarrasing.
-'Playa
*** This post was edited by CoastaPlaya on 1/17/2003. ***
Oh boy toys to play with.
"All we got was PT! LOL! A ride that dwarfs anything in their sister park. All we got was a $10 million dollar cap year in 2000--you know, more than twice the budget WOF has ever seen since being last in line to get a hyper, remember? "
Yeah, quite a waste of a large budget that would have built a nice inverted - but hey to each his own. I'm more than happy with Detonator, which is BY FAR more intense than any of the taller brothers - proving once again that bigger does not equal better.
"But if you must ask, we got as many new kiddie rides that year (Convoy, Busy Bees, Frog Hopper, some kinda 'fishie' ride and I might have missed one) as WOF got the next year in a rehashed Camp Snoopy too."
I still think of that as such a waste of a large budget for VF, what were they thinking?
"And if the separate gate park (OOF) meant that much to CF, wouldn't we see it in the cap budget the park would get? "
No we wouldn't. 3 out of the 6 parks have water parks included in their overall admission. In essence the other 3 that don't, are actually getting almost double the admission money that the three that include the park get. Oh and you still didn't answer my question about when the the last major addition/budget was spent on your water park.
"Let's review here in real-life terms: Smaller park with shorter season and larger attendance equals more profits and bigger budgets. Bigger park with longer season with lower attendance equals lower profits and smaller budgets. The sister parks that get the decent cap budgets are the teams that prove they deserve it. "
Maybe I missed something, but does the fact that VF is halfway between two of the larger metro regions mean anything? Or the fact it has NO competition. Missouri is a competitive state. If WOF doesn't cut it for the family SDC or SF will. Up there in the frozen neverworld, it's pretty much VF or nothing. I think VF has the upper hand there because if they want to raise ticket prices, so what, if they don't want to add anything, so what - where else are they going to go? WOF doesn't have that luxary.
Also our attendance (with OOF included), I do believe is more than VF's. I think that is right. weren't you guys down 1%, which would make you around 1 million or just a little above.
Oh 2004 is going to be a good year 'Playa. :)
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SWOOSH
(TPO)ThemeParksOnline.ORG
(MIG)MidwestInfoGuide
"For the year, attendance at Worlds of Fun was up 2% to 940,000 guests, Valleyfair was down slightly at 1.04 million, and Michigan’s Adventure was essentially flat between years at 420,000 guests."
CF website.
Oooh, I feel a tickle in my throat.
Cough Cough--KCS-MOA--ahem--almost 3 million more visitors in MN--oooh.
Like I said before....dollar bills don't lie. We get 'em, you don't. Get more fingers to count with or something. Would an abacus help?
I think I'll have today's pancakes with sliced apples, cinnamon sugar, thin, crisp and slapped upside the back of your neck. Thank you very much for asking.
Why don't you go write an angry rap tune or two about it? I think it's easier than trying to rewrite history or create an alternate reality.
-'Playa
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The CPlaya 100--6 days, 9 parks, 47 coasters, 2037 miles and a winner.....LoCoSuMo.
Speedy said:
"For the year, attendance at Worlds of Fun was up 2% to 940,000 guests, Valleyfair was down slightly at 1.04 million, and Michigan’s Adventure was essentially flat between years at 420,000 guests."
CF website.
Also this doesn't include OOF like was stated before. If OOF WAS included the attendance is at 1.2million, which is more than what VF had last season in accordance with the Cedar Fair PR.
Oh and please don't even start throwing KCS into this. If you consider THAT competition you need a check up (from the neck up).
I think I will have my pancakes with a touch of Mrs Buttersworth syrup, and lightly sprinkled with powdered sugar.
Oh here we go - My name is Swooshy and this is my rap, Coaster Playa is full of nutin' but crap. So here is sumthun for your to much on, VF got it's butt kicked in attendance -and that's the end of my song.
Also will you answer my question - WHEN was the last time a major budget was used on VF's waterpark? Was it even within the last 10 years?
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SWOOSH
(TPO)ThemeParksOnline.ORG
(MIG)MidwestInfoGuide
*** This post was edited by Swoosh on 1/17/2003. ***
Oh what the hell let's throw in KCS with Knott's as well, it has the same name. -- I see where this one is going.
Now I can understand adding the Orange County park to KBF's total attendance, but the others is just silly. The only reason why I was adding OOF's attendance to WOF's, is the fact that VF includes the waterpark figures into their's. In all actuality, some people go just to the waterpark while at VF. Do you see what I am getting at - because I am starting to feel like I am beating a dead horse.
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SWOOSH
(TPO)ThemeParksOnline.ORG
(MIG)MidwestInfoGuide
Apparently you can't read or rhyme, Swoosh Shady--I said KCS-Mall of America. You know, the other CF park in Minnesota that draws more peeps than both the 'of Funs combined. When you add the couple of new rides that got added there too, the MN vs. MO issue gets even more laughable.
And again--it's the park's call to do what they want with the money. If VF doesn't choose to expand the waterpark with the big budgets that they get and WOF doesn't, it's their call. If WOF blows their budget on a Boomerang that does nothing for attendance instead of saving up for something better, that's their blown call. If VF keeps getting bigger budgets they're doing something right. If WOF hasn't been able to get one together in five years, what does that tell you?
BTW--folks in Minnesota don't call a $3 million cap budget (read: Boomerang or Top Spin) a big-budget expenditure--that's called an off-year. You know, something we can get pretty much without asking. We could spring for that a year after one of those $10 million years you never see, no problemo.
Keep imagining things to yourself--cuz the Impulse in my backyard sure as heck ain't make-believe. Whoosh.
-'Playa
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The CPlaya 100--6 days, 9 parks, 47 coasters, 2037 miles and a winner.....LoCoSuMo.
*** This post was edited by CoastaPlaya on 1/17/2003. ***
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