What was the first Cobra Roll... Raptor or Kumba?

I was watching the discovery channel and they said that the first coaster to have a cobra roll was raptor.
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Borf_the_magic

Why is this still in discussion? The first Vekoma boomer was built, many, many years before Raptor, Kumba, or DF.

coasterdude318 said:
Obviously nobody is ever going to agree on this one, but I just don't see any reason why Arrow would create a ride that is such a drastic departure from their others (design-wise).

Perhaps because the park asked them to. That's what coaster desigeners do. The parks tell them what they want, and then they design it.

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Kicking screamin' Gucci little siggy.

The first Vekoma Boomerang was Escorpion at Rieno Aventura(Mexico City, Mexico) and was built in 1981.

No, Escorpion opened in 1988. The first Vekoma boomerangs appeared in 1984 at Morey's Piers (Sea Serpent) and Bellewaerde Park in Belgium (Boomerang). I believe it's generally agreed that the ride at Morey's was the first Vekoma boomer, and thus the first coaster with a cobra roll-type inversion (Drachen Fire didn't appear until 1992).

-Nate

I asked Arrow's top dog... B&M had zero to do with the ride.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
"As far as I can tell it doesn't matter who you are. If you can believe, there's something worth fighting for..." - Garbage, "Parade"

I still argue that neither company would ever admitt to the other's involvement. What reasons would they have for admitting it? None. What reasons would they have for not admitting it? Plenty. Honestly, how else can you explain a layout that is not at all the style Arrow had used for years? The best example is the curved drop off the block brake into the corkscrew. Up until Drachen Fire, when entering a left-hand corkscrew, Arrow would approach it with a left-hand curve. But Drachen Fire's approach curves to the right, then whips around the left-hand corkscrew (which is what most B&Ms do). Other non-Arrow things in the design are the cutback, the airtime hump, the batwing, and the (now gone) interlocking corkscrews. Now, the park could have asked Arrow to throw some of those things into the layout, but would they specify a right-hand curve off the brakes into a left-hand corkscrew? If this wasn't based on a B&M layout, then somebody offer a good explanation for the drastic difference between DF and other Arrow coasters.

-Nate

As for the Drachen Fire quarrels...who cares at this point? It is a great ride by ARROW, a vast imrovement over their "loopscrew" coasters. I will always feel that BGW did intend to have a B&M coaster, and that is what Mr. Toomer knew when he designed the ride. Also as for the "batwing/boomerang/cobra roll" it was the next logical step for Arrow. This coaster was built to compete with Anaconda just up the road. Anaconda has a sidewinder, so was it not obvious just to put two of them back to back...not really genious in my opinion, but great thining none the less?And as for Arrow taking credit...what about Whirlwind at Knoebel's? Sure it is Vekoma, but built by Arrow, and has Arrow trains...so is it really Vekoma?

Oh, yeah...are there any other Arrow coasters with a batwing?

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Phly the Pheonix

DF never had interlocking corkscrews, just 2 separated corkscrews. Also, who cares which way it enters a corkscrew? Who said a company can't change the way they usually enter it? The batwing a copy? So what? B&M copied the Arrow boomerang, so who cares? Don't talk to me about the supports. Look at Canyon Blaster (Vegas) sometime. They have those "B&M style" supports, too (except the lift hill). Airtime hump? Look at Corkscrew at Cedar Point and even both Turn of the Centries. The TOTCs had 2 of them (which were later removed for the 2 vertical loops.)
Also, I would like to quote someone just to make it more clear... I know some people take a while to learn and need to be told more than once.
"I asked Arrow's top dog... B&M had zero to do with the ride"
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Hi! I'm Hungry, whats your name?
*** This post was edited by TrBiggar on 12/6/2001. ***

*** This post was edited by TrBiggar on 12/6/2001. ***

No Nate, time to put up or shut up. Just what is this *evidence*. It better be DAMN compelling if you are basically saying that Fred B. is a liar (or severely misinformed). Arrow says it's theirs. B&M says it's NOT theirs. Why is there all the fuss?

Oh, and to address the why is DF different question I will reply with both an answer and a question:

Answer: There always has to be a first something. DF was the first. It didn't turn out very good, so they scratched the idea. Furthermore, how many Arrow megaloopers were made AFTER DF? The next one I remember is either Steel Phantom or Tennessee Tornado (another *radical* design)

Question: *IF* the 'uniqueness' of the 'batwing' on DF makes you question its origin, then what about the 'bowtie' on Dragon Mountain? It is the only Arrow coaster to have one. Did Arrow get that idea elsewhere too?
ciao,
moi
--Drachen Fire: Out of Legend and into Reality...

When was Vortex at KI built? That is a pretty good Arrow megalooper.

1987
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Kicking screamin' Gucci little siggy.

my god coasterdude, your SO stubborn. so basically your saying that a fading rollercoaster manufacturer cant make a different style of ride to possibly get more buisness, that is complete BS. i still dont get why arrow would take the credit for a failed design if it WAS NOT theirs. i WOULD like to see your proof, the proof i have-

-a letter CLEARLY stating that B&M had NOTHING to do with it

-Jeff asking arrows president

-Video of Ron Toomer talking about designing the ride

and if you want to go with the B&M side here goes. your proof is that its "clearly" a B&M coaster even tho the B&M coasters of that time were... turn drop, loop, turnaround, cork, end... when drachen fire is... cork/drop, airtime hill, batwing, turn into midcourse brakes, drop, cork, turn, cutback, turn, cork, hill/turn, helix, hill/turn, brakes. i dont know about you, but that doesnt sound like a B&M to me...

*** This post was edited by themonkeymaster99 on 12/6/2001. ***

If you look at Kumba, which was built a year later, there are so many similarities it's uncanny.

For example:

Inline twist into Cobra Roll (Presuming the airtime hill to be an Inline twist)

Left hand rising curve onto the brakes.

if you look from overhead, the original corkscrew-cutback-corkscew is very similar to the corkscrew-turn-corkscrew section on Kumba.

The story, as I've heard it, is that the park had worked with B&M to develop the initial centerline layout (A rought overhead sketch), but then B&M told them that continued work on DF would delay Kumba by a year. So DF went to Arrow, and B&M did Kumba.

Okay, then maybe someone can answer *this* question for me. *IF* what cg.net said is true, why would B&M stop work on *Drachen Fire* and not Kumba? If Drachen Fire was *so* far along in the design process that Arrow finished it in time for the 1992 season, why didnt BEC have B&M finish Drachen Fire and go with Arrow on Kumba? Moreover, if BEC was so ansty to get coasters delivered, an B&M could not provide Drachen Fire on time, why would BEC continue to work with B&M on Kumba?

There are too many questions that can not be answered with any other simplified theory other than "B&M had nothing to do with Drachen Fire"!
ciao,
moi

Because at that point, Kumba was farther along. We're talking early-mid 1991 here. B&M had problems with Kumba. I'm fairly sure a 1992 opening was planned.

And what, praytell, types of problems did they have with Kumba? I dont think there was a *whole* lot of new technology there. And I certainly remember it did not take them a year to actually *construct* Batman: The Ride.

So if by mid 1991 all they had was prelim work for both Kumba and Drachen Fire, why did Drachen Fire open a whole year before Kumba. I still contend that if the engineering was far enough along for Arrow to have DF completed by 1992, then there would be no reason for the 'handoff' of DF. Unless you (and I mean a collective you) can proffer more than mere allegation that "something went wrong" with B&M and Drachen Fire, I'm going to take the words of them that know (being Mr. W.B., Mr. C.M., and Mr. F. B.)
ciao,
moi
--thank you please drive thru

2Hostyl, lets just give up. If this guy wants to be ignorant, stuborn, stupid, stay in denial, or whatever you want to call it, let him. Everybody else by now knows DF is Arrow and DF is not B&M. It's CG.net's own loss if he belives DF is a B&M-designed coaster.
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Hi! I'm Hungry, whats your name?

First of all, I never called anyone a liar *or* misinformed. If you interpreted it that way, then sorry - read it again. I'm not arguing this further because, as I said at the beginning (scroll up!), it's an argument that's been had before and never goes anywhere. So I guess I'll just be ignorant and stupid like the others. Lighten up, people.
-Nate

*** This post was edited by coasterdude318 on 12/6/2001. ***

2hostyl, this is the story of the "new" technology. Busch wanted a coaster with a loop around the lift hill. B&M were having trouble doing it. Originally, Kumba was planned for BGW but since B&M couldnt perfect the loop around the lift in time, DF came out instead. Then, kumba came out the following year with the loop around the lift hill.

Thats the facts ive been told.