The Price of Access at SFGAdv.

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it seems like the op lets about as many VQers as regular guests in at any given time...

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That's pretty typical, actually. I believe the *lowest* ratio of Fastpass guests at Disney attractions is 50%, and for most attractions it is much higher.

Wait--what was that? I think you just kinda made one of my points.

"merging of VQers never has an effect on capacity or loading process. The one downside on that particular ride is, it seems like the op lets about as many VQers as regular guests in at any given time..."

This is what I am talking about. This is NOT minimal impact on the rest of the guests.

The way I was describing, though, not the best system in the world, seems to have minimal effect on the regular queue.

If they clearly labelled the queue and row(s) of the coaster, then it would be less confusing for the GP and the FPers. Train arrives in station, train unlocks and guests disembark. As guests are exiting the queue, a ride op lets in no more than 4 guests and directs them to the clearly marked FP row. Around the time of the FPers entering their row, the air gates open and the rest of the riders board.

For this system to work well, SF should staff 4 restraint checkers in the station (at least for the larger-train coasters). Have a special FP queue on the exit side of the station with a chain barrier (just like Nitro used to use--not the exit, but a separate stairway). One of the restraint checkers would man this queue. With only letting in a max of 4 people per trainload, it wouldn't be many people to manage at a time.

Like I said before, so what if you don't get to pick your row--you're getting to cut the line, so just accept the row they give you.

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rc-madness said:
Great questions Gonch. Given everything you pointed out, where does Six Flags go from here? What they are doing make sense in the short run, but I see no plan for the future. If nothing changes, things can only get worse for many Six Flags parks.

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Well, I'd have to assume that improved operations are a concern. (it also seems to be a majority of the concern on the subject of Flashpass hatred as well)

So I guess they try to fix the operations problems that have been a part of Six Flags for as long as I've been interested in this sort of thing.

I'd also assume pricing stays put and q-bot has no reason to go.

That's another fun 'what if' question come to think of it.

What if SF does improve operations? What's the deal going to be if they start running at acceptable-to-full capacity on the rides and pricing stays as well as Q-Bot? Is there still a problem?

^ Short answer. No.

The problem is that don't have an incentive to do that. That's the problem with their Flash Pass. There is too much money to be made by slowing down access to rides.

Well, there would be an incentive if they are loosing the “”regular admission” people who are irked by the poor operations, as this still makes up the majority of guest.

I agree, but that means they can only respond to a drop in attendance, and by then it may be too late for Six Flags. They can't afford to dip down again. At the end of the day Flash Pass profits shows them making good money. The bottom line can't calculate the publics irked factor, unless they conduct a survey of guest satisfaction at the exits. I get the sense they don't want to know what people think about their parks these days because they can't afford to respond to customer complaints. I am of the opinion they can't afford not to. *** Edited 10/14/2006 7:37:56 PM UTC by rc-madness***

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The bottom line can't calculate the publics irked factor, unless they conduct a survey of guest satisfaction at the exits.

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They did that just three months ago. :)

I stand corrected. In that survey I guess they discovered the public loves long lines, they love high prices, they don't eat enough roaches, they want Flash Pass expanded. This explains Shapiro's raise and how pointless concerns are. Six Flags is again on the road towards success.

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rablat5 said:
Wait--what was that? I think you just kinda made one of my points.

"merging of VQers never has an effect on capacity or loading process. The one downside on that particular ride is, it seems like the op lets about as many VQers as regular guests in at any given time..."

This is what I am talking about. This is NOT minimal impact on the rest of the guests.

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The problem with a separate row is that it decreases the overall capacity for both the FPers and the GPers by slowing down the dispatch time. EVerybody loses.

With the station merge point, the overall capacity is the same, so it's zero-sum. Any seats lost by GP are taken by FP, not by stupidity (as in the devoted row implementation).

Furthermore, in the Nitro devoted row example, this would mean FPers have to ride back row and nobody else gets to (on top of the double load cycle).

The solution to the problem with station merge: just tell the op not to let in so many fastpassers - 4 per train (easy).

There are actually a number of rides already implemented this way and working the system as close to flawlessly as the system can be worked (Titan comes immediately to mind).

The solution to the problem with devoted row: get hoardes of GP to act non-stupidly (not easy) AND come up with some way of doing two separate load cycles without losing capacity (impossible). And even if you're successful, you still have the problem that FPers get no choice in row and eliminate the front or back row for regular guests (or they come up the exit and clog everything). *** Edited 10/15/2006 3:16:57 PM UTC by ApolloAndy***

Perhaps another way to interpret the survey is that the GP isn't nearly as picky as we are---they just have lower expecations. That's not a good thing, but it seems to be so.

For example, my brother once took his family to Disneyland in the week between Christmas and New Years--the busiest week of DL's season. They arrived around 11AM---the park opened at 8. They left around 4:30. They had no plan. In short, they did everything possible to ensure the worst possible visit to that park. They saw a grand total of three "attractions" (one was a Pooh meet-n-greet), saw the Parade, and had lunch.

Now, if you or I had had that kind of day, we'd feel completely ripped off. They had enough fun to go back and do almost exactly the same thing the next year.

And that's exactly what I think, Brian.

I don't think the GP (or 'average guest') is nearly as disappointed with their visit as some of these guys are trying to argue.

That's not to say things are peachy keen, but...

I really don't believe that many people notice that operations suck. I think they just see long lines. I don't think that many people hate the Flashpass system - especially when the line for a Q-bot is as long as a line for an attraction. I don't think $15 parking is a universal gripe. I'd bet hardly anyone is paying $60 at the gate to get in.

In short, I think the haters overstate the case and assume they represent the majority. For the record, I think I probably am guilty of the same thing. I think it's a case of there being three sides to the story - yours, mine and the truth. ;)

I'd put money on the fact that we represent the far extremes of the scale - on one side you got people like rablat5, rc-madness, etc who find no satisfactions in an SF visit. On the other end you got people like me who accept it for what it is, suck it up and make a good time of it. Wanna bet that 99% of the visitors fall somewhere in-between?

On top of that I think the assumption that a good day is one where the most rides possible are obtained is also a bit of misconception. Again, I can only use my experiences as an example, but if you guys are basing the quality of your visit on the number of rides you get in a day, you'd be appalled at some park visits I've taken.

For example, I've been to PKI 4 times in my life (3 BeastBuzz events and a preview day) and spent a total of 63 hours there. I still only have 9 of the 12 coaster credits there. My one trip to SFGAm, I only got 5 of 12 credits - and we even bought Flashpasses!

It's just that we did other non-ride things (shows, spent some time in the water park, just walked around, games, etc.)

I'm sure that approach also represents an extreme end of the scale, but I also believe that power riding is not the intent of the majority of park visitors.

Sometimes a day at the park is the goal of visitors.

With all of that said, yes, SF is losing money and customer base. There are certainly numerous problems that need addressed. But I still think many (most?) of the people through their gates have an acceptable or better day.

If they didn't, the only way Six Flags could get them back would be to give away the gate...

LG, completly agree, its about what you want to do, for instance yesterday I went to CP and did:

7 rides on Magnum
3 rides on Gemini
2 rides on the Troika
1 ride on Blue Streak, Mean Streak, Calypso, Disaster Transport, and Space Spirl

Which would probably be cause for a rant about how crowded CP was (and it was the lots were full) which is why I choose not to wait 2+hours for Raptor, MF, and TTD. Even discounting that, its not very many rides for being there 12 hours, however I also did:

2 trips through the Fright Zone
1 trip through Werewolf Canyon, Vampire's Layer, Pharoh's Tomb, Carn evil, and Fear Fare
Watched some monsters dance to the Monster Mash and watched about a combined quarter of football while eating lunch/resting.

All and all, I had a fantastic day at the Point (lets give it an 9 out of 10) and will definatly go back on a Halloweekend Saturday even when knowing that I could have an absoultly dead park if I went a day later.

Its all about preception, looking back I experienced 25 "attractions" which means I paid $1.30 ($33 admission/25) a attaction which I consider a a great deal.

Like I said, I had a Q-Bot and I got to ride four coasters at Great Adventure for my seven hours at the park. Sounds like you had a great day at CP even without Raptor, MF and TTD. I'm so jealous. Given the chance to do that weekend again, Dorney would have been great.

Would I have had a better day at SFGAdv. if I spent the day riding Rolling Thunder, Batman and Blackbeards Treasure Train? That's a good question.

And I really don't think this view represents an extreme perspective. The folks who didn't have a Q-Bot and only got to ride two coasters, may have been a bit more upset then I was. But you're right, I don't know. It could have been their best day of amusement ever.

No doubt Gold-Botters had a wonderful time. *** Edited 10/15/2006 8:48:41 PM UTC by rc-madness***