Teacher accused of stealing $14k as a Knoebels seasonal

"This alone shows the priority that society puts on an educator is not that high."

What about this sentence is confusing you guys? I agree education does not have a high priority. Here are my disagreements with Jeff and coasterdad (some pertain to one or the other or both)!

1. "idiot voters"

I think it is pompous and rude to assume you know better than anybody else how to vote. I've offered up my observations of great waste involved in school districts. Is it not possible that somebody may not want to put additional funding into a system that wastes OR does not operate efficiently? Possible? Why would they be idiots IF they decide not to vote on levies IF they feel/believe the money is not being spent efficiently?

2. "Secondly, who is it that determines what is and is not a fair salary?"

I wrote this quote. Why won't ANYBODY answer this? If you know teachers are underpaid, then what do you suggest they should be paid? I thought the market determined what people were willing to accept as wages for a job performed. Am I wrong?

3. "Clearly you have no idea what the value of education is."

What is this statement based upon IF not anything more than incivility? This was written BEFORE any responses were directed at any specific poster from me. Why does one certain poster get away with being so rude and obnoxious, while others do not? The double standard is laughable. Read the thread IN ORDER and show me who started this down the path of incivility. THEN ask yourself why you feel the need to protect the guy who asked for rebuttal by attacking the person who is merely RESPONDING to a rude and obnoxious poster?

4. "I'm not even interested in reading your response. If it takes you that much text to respond to one sentence, you probably aren't even arguing the right case."

Does this response need explanation? We have a poster that is only interested in his own posts and will continue to argue without reading any opposing views. Is it any wonder that his responses have NOTHING to do with what is posted? Why would one feel the need to treat this kind of poster with ANY respect? This guy is not interested in debate, he is interested in flaming and hearing himself speak.

5. "No, you just bore the crap out of me."

Again, has anybody questioned the civility of the man who wrote this? Hmmm.... Civility personified I guess! :-)

6. "Your entire argument is based on what you see happening in Las Vegas."

Jeff states this one post after I wrote---"From an insiders perspective I can assure you that most claims of “teacher shortages” are completely made up. The districts love to use this tactic to keep the applicant pool loaded. I cannot attest to Florida or where you live."

AND I wrote---"This same situation occurs in Ohio and Tennessee in the smaller rural districts. Again, I cannot attest to your specific area, but I know in Northwest Ohio they are laying teachers off. Maybe your area of Ohio can get some of these teachers?"

Can we assume Jeff did not read this post either? I guess it was too long for him. AND I'm the one who gets accused of misrepresenting myself?

7. "Las Vegas, hard as it might be to believe, is not the center of the universe. Nothing about that town is typical or representative of anything in this country."

Was it not enough that coaster website guy thinks he knows better about education than "idiot voters" and those of us who actually work in public education? Now he thinks he knows better about what living in Las Vegas is like versus somebody who actually lives there AND has lived in OH, IN, WV, and MO! I can only assume that he thinks The Strip is real Las Vegas. I wonder why we are the fastest growing city in the country and Ohio is losing people? Maybe IF enough of those "idiot voters" leave Ohio, then Ohio can have that great education system they apparently are currently lacking! Is there no limits to coaster website guys expertise?

8. "Tell all the jobless teachers in LV to come here or Florida, because there are plenty of jobs to go around."

Market forces will determine where people are willing to move for work. Apparently Florida, is artificially limiting education jobs. My wife and I looked into moving there a few years ago and there were NO openings for either a teacher or administration jobs.

9. "I would suggest that you - Mr. Smith, rethink you take on the subject."

I'm more than willing to debate and look at all sides of the issues. However, I find it laughable that I should have to rethink my take because of the arguments of one person who ADMITS he does not read my responses or opinions. Furthermore, why should Jeff, you, or I have to change OPINIONS? This is all we're talking about. I don't think you guys are idiots because you disagree with me. I think you rude and obnoxious due to your double standards and predictable behaviors as you circle the wagons. I can only assume that you are buddies with Jeff. As a researcher, (my undergrad is in Biology and Chemistry) you should know a thing or two about objectivity. Your willingness to actively ONLY chastise me for supposed wrongings while turning the other cheek to Jeff, is anything but fair and objective. You've drawn your conclusions about me BEFORE presenting your case. I hope you are a little bit more objective in that research you do!

10. "As for whether or not I agree or disagree, civility is more of the point here."

"Now c'mon coasterdad, you know Mr. Smith just wants to pontificate and cast aspersions....Why do you have to go and ruin his day by introducing facts into this discussion???"

We'll group these 2 statements together. Do I need to say anything else about these statements and who it is directed toward? Objectivity anybody? Researcher---really? LOL!

11. "somehow facts seemed appropriate."

What fact is it that you think I do not see? What is it you think I should say/do/believe that is different than what you have said coasterdad? I'm confused, because I think I've agreed with all of your points EXCEPT calling voters who disagree with you "idiots!" AND your ability to only call me uncivil when there is obviously at least one other poster who started the flaming that YOU'VE, for whatever reason, chosen to ignore. I've seen the facts, I've heard your arguments. I still have yet to have ONE of you guys who claim you know better about teacher's salaries tell me what a fair salary is for a 9-month employee. Why is this a challenge? This really is not a trap. I honestly would like your OPINIONS about what is fair for a 9-month employee. I've already stated that I feel I'm compensated fairly. I'm honestly interested in your takes.

12. "O.K., Jeff and Jeffrey can now resume their disagreements."

LOL Chitown! Your take was 100% what I believe by the way!

This quote says it all. For me, this has nothing to do with Jeff, and everything to do with annoying little blurbs meant to belittle and chastise those who may have opposing viewpoints. I’d argue with anybody who acted like this. It just so seems that Jeff is ALWAYS the guy pushing the envelope. It seems petty and ridiculous to call people "idiot voters" or to make stupid statements like "good thing you are not in charge"! They are obvious attempts to flame those who disagree with his worldviews. Sometimes it is best to keep your mouth shut. As far as I can tell, I've upset the apple cart here at CB because I challenge Jeff when he goes off on one of his infamous snippets. Apparently the thing to do is to laugh and ignore, or say nothing. That is just not my style!

Jeff comes from a WAY left viewpoint on almost all of his takes that are not coaster related (there are a lot of these)! I come from the right. We see the world differently and disagree on most of these issues. When I see statements like:

"The problem is not your teachers, it's likely the idiot voters in your district that don't understand the value of education."

I cannot help but want to puke. Who really does not care about "the value of education?" Apparently Jeff thinks there is a group of voters out there that have decided they want kids to be stupid---inferred! It sure feels good to say something like this, and in my opinion, takes ZERO thought.

I challenge such corny statements to see IF there is some actual thought behind the words, or IF somebody is just spouting off to get a rise again!

Either way, when two strong-willed people with opposing viewpoints collide, this is what you get.

I enjoy Jeff’s coaster takes most of the time, and have always been the first to compliment the work and effort that goes into the site. I respect that he has the ambition to do a coaster website and actually hope he makes a killing. This is not because I like the guy---I think he is a grade A jerk---but because I appreciate the American Dream and the fact that ANYBODY tries to live it. However, when he opens that mouth with those immature little political barbs, it is like scratching a chalkboard. I cannot believe that the others on the board allow him to get away with such rude and obnoxious behaviors without challenge. Apparently, there is a group of friends though, that are willing to overlook such behaviors!

There you have it! Point-by-point-by point!

P.S. I edited this post to add italics and bolds! I usually use Firefox as a browser and these editing options do not show up! I went to IE and found out how you guys clean this stuff up! Nice!*** This post was edited by Jeffrey R Smith 8/19/2004 7:09:21 PM ***

Wow! I completely avoided this news topic because I assumed it wouldn't be very interesting. I missed so much.

"I can only assume that you are buddies with Jeff. As a researcher, (my undergrad is in Biology and Chemistry) you should know a thing or two about objectivity."

I am far from Jeff's buddy. As for being a researcher, how is that you make your living? Oh yea, selling CDs online and working as a PT for your local school board. Admirable, certainly. You have a real job and a fun job/hobby, but does that make you special or an expert? Sorry.

I have been a researcher since 1986, I beleive you were 15. Research involves facts. There are very few facts here, regardless of whose typing.

"Do I need to say anything else about these statements and who it is directed toward? Objectivity anybody? Researcher---really? LOL!?"

Reread the post, at no time did I mention "pontificate and cast aspersions".

LOL is right, I am laughing at the time and energy you are putting into this.
I am also laughing at myself for bothering to reply.

By the way, your wife's title is spelled "principal" not "principle". No big deal if you don't mind being a "fiscal therapist".

*** This post was edited by CoasterDad64 8/19/2004 10:50:31 PM ***

I usually just watch from the sidelines on this site, just to get my news and info quietly, but I just had to mention how much I HATE the pissing matches that happen on here. It is Jeff's darn site, so he can answer your posts with as many or as little words as he pleases.

I guess I assumed a researcher was interested in being objective. Your continued failure to denounce Jeff for incivility while at the same time blasting me for RESPONDING with my own incivility only shows your true colors! Objectivity is out the window for you on this thread, which is obvious and not arguable. Maybe you are just objective at work? I can't read minds. My post was point-by-point and thorough! Your inability to find fault with anything short of a spelling error really says it all.

1. does that make you special or an expert? Sorry.

Never claimed to be an expert. Never called people who disagreed with me "idiots." I appreciate all opinions. Never came out and made statements like "it is a good thing you are not in charge", etc. I'm just a man with an opinion. I state it and back it with my reasoning to the best of my abilities. When others get rude and obnoxious with their inflammatory statements and misrepresentations of my posts, I defend myself strongly.

Again, for whatever reason coasterdad, I must have rubbed you wrong. Shouldn't this statement be addressed to the guy that argues teachers salaries as absolutes even though he does not work in education? Or denounces Vegas, even though he does not live in Vegas? Why do you seem to only take issue with my posts coasterdad? If you are not Jeff's friend, what other reason could there be?

2. pontificate and cast aspersions".

Never meant to imply you said this. I threw it in there since the insults were similar in context and it is obvious that you and the quote's author were most interested in damaging my credibility for whatever reason. I apologize!

3. There are very few facts here, regardless of whose typing.

Again we agree. This is an argument about education and salaries and there is no wrong and right, only opinion! I'm confused why you said this though:

"Sorry redman, I am a researcher by profession, and somehow facts seemed approriate."

By the way, it is spelled appropriate, not approriate, since we’re apparently spell checking now!

However, there are a couple small facts that have come to the forefront AND are easy to see in this thread.

• I did not cast the first stone in terms of insult and personal attacks.
• You have chosen to attack my rebuttals as if they are isolated incidents without provocation.

A simple review shows this to be true.

I don't know you coasterdad, but I agree it is LOL about the effort put forth in this thread. I do agree with almost all of your takes and still cannot see why you feel the need to codemn my incivility while ignoring Jeff's. If I did not know better, I would guess you are purposely avoiding any comments about Jeff's behaviors and have an unhealthy fixation on my takes. This is why I assumed you were friends. Seems weird that a guy, who apparently prides himself on objective research, would be so one-sided with his condemnations. I can only guess that some sort of offense you have taken to something I’ve said clouds your objectivity with respect to me, or maybe some misinterpretation of what I'm saying. Anyhow, good luck with that research.

What type of research do you do by the way? It has been a while, but I've done a few controlled experiments back in the undergrad days. Went the easy route with PT after the B.S. degrees. Still read a lot of journals (medical/therapy) to keep up on the latest research. Are you published in any peer-reviewed journals? Or do you work in the private sector?

Edited for font changes!

*** This post was edited by Jeffrey R Smith 8/19/2004 11:54:44 PM ****** This post was edited by Jeffrey R Smith 8/19/2004 11:55:47 PM ***

I did not specifically comment on any particular person's civility, only civility in general.

When it comes to spelling, my spelling and typing don't always go hand in hand. I guess I should have said "JRS, check your web site for spelling, not to be critical, but "principal" is misspelled and that is an important one to get right."

I work in market research, primarily media and politics. With the exception of the academics (I live in the real world) you will rarely see anyone's name associated with results. You can see direct results of my work here.

*** This post was edited by CoasterDad64 8/20/2004 7:28:27 AM ***

Never realized MASH was that big---Ranked above Superbowls! And WWE still cracks the top 10 for cable. LOL!

Mr. Smith,

I come here to read about coasters, and I didn't even bother reading your responses, (not into novels). Here in Dayton, OH we have the same thing going on here, in fact, it's becoming epidemic everywhere, and we all understand a lot more than you think about this situation.

I'm just glad to see a crime by a school teacher that didn't involve having an affair with a student!

"I'm just glad to see a crime by a school teacher that didn't involve having an affair with a student!"

Sadly, we have a lot of that in Vegas! :-)

Sorry, to hear that.