Teacher accused of stealing $14k as a Knoebels seasonal

Do you disagree with my analysis Jeff? I don't see any reason to insult...! I agree that education is a public institution. Did I ever say it wasn't? However, the act of selecting teachers and teacher’s salaries are indeed ruled by supply and demand.

My wife just hired a 6th grade teacher today (last minute staff retirement). I assure you that there are plenty of applicants for each position she has hired this summer. She has the luxury of picking and choosing (special education is a different beast and they ARE paid higher due to---guess what?---market forces---simple supply and demand) There is no force, market or otherwise that would suggest these general education positions are not in demand!

Exactly, what is it you disagree with?

In my opinion, your statement

"Teachers are generally the most underpaid professionals in the US. The problem is not your teachers, it's likely the idiot voters in your district that don't understand the value of education."

is wrong in the first sentence. The evidence shows they are paid handsomely---maybe not in the dollars and cents YOU would like, but there is nothing in your take than can explain the multiple people willing to fill these positions IF indeed, as YOU claim they are underpaid. You are basically calling teachers idiots. What sort of fool would take a job that he or she thought was not worth the effort? Apparently, in the area of special education, there is indeed an element of “underpaying” happening, as school districts have had to offer bonuses and increased salaries to attract people to these positions. So in the select area of special education, your first sentence holds water.

I agree with your second sentence generally! However, who decides what the value of an education is? Unless and until there is a teacher shortage through market forces, or general strike (which we cannot legally do in NV by the way per union contract), THEN there is no incentive for "idiot voters" to change their vote as all they see are positions filled!

I know you like to disagree with me Jeff, but IF your position is that there are no market forces (supply and demand) involved in teacher salaries, you are just being silly... If you want to debate the issues I’m game, but I’m quite sure everybody (including myself) at CB is tired of you and I flaming each other!

P.S. Just like you know the inner workings of CP and apparently the media---I know a lot about public education. I work in it. My wife has taught and administrates in it, my brother does the same. My mother retired this year. I can assure people that waste is rampant (we have more brand new Dell laptop computers in the CCSD than we know what to do with) AND I can attest that salaries and benefits as a whole are more than fair. I appreciate that you are concerned about my pay scale and I certainly would never turn down a raise, but I cannot say with a straight face that I am not paid fairly. My hourly breakdown pay is more than fair. And yes, I too have to do lesson plans, IEPs, and government Medicaid logs (paperwork) that every educator hates! In the special education field the paperwork is notoriously more time-consuming than in general education. I still will not (and believe me I have the ability to do so) trade my job in the public school district for a higher paying private sector job. My 100 plus co-workers, by overwhelming majority, agree with my take. We are in a unique position as physical and occupational therapists to have an opportunity to work in either the public or private sectors as competing entities. To a person, I have not met a therapist that has EVER said they want to go back to the private sector where greater riches loom. The primary reason is that we love to work with kids, and we love to have summers and holidays off! It is such a family-friendly work setting. This is a HUGE benefit that cannot be overlooked when determining appropriate compensation. If you or anybody knows of a therapy job where I can get 75% pension on retirement, every summer off, and 2-3 weeks every Christmas, plus most Holidays WHILE earning a reasonable salary (I’m on the teacher’s pay scale), then please let me know. As far as I can tell there is only one job setting where this is possible for ANYBODY in ANY broad job category---Public Education! Time is money they say. I’m living proof!

P.P.S. Your link (Jeff) on the PKI thread about CP was one of the best-written takes I’ve seen on any coaster board to date!

P.P.P.S. That guy who stole $14,000 dollars should have to pay back the money and spend next summer in front of the park with a big wooden sign advertising that he is a thief who stole the money from the park! This sees like a fair punishment to me!

http://www.act60.org/coulson.htm

Decent book on market education...if you are interested...

I'm not even interested in reading your response. If it takes you that much text to respond to one sentence, you probably aren't even arguing the right case.

And don't flatter yourself... I don't feel any need to disagree with you personally. Nothing you argue is particularly important to me.

Or maybe you just write without any depth in your thought? One liberal catch phrase after another without an ounce of thought put into your take! Oh well! Your CP take was good. You're clueless on education though! I live it! You talk about it! LOL! :-)

No, you just bore the crap out of me. You're babbling on about me allegedly calling teachers idiots. What the hell are you talking about? You make stuff up and that means you win the debate? Respond to what I said, not your own tangents. Here's a summary:

• Teachers are underpaid. That's my opinion, as someone married to a teacher and as someone that worked in a school district for three years. If you disagree, good for you, I don't care, it's still my opinion.
• Voters are idiots. Yep, it's true. Few things can tank property values like crappy schools. My district and voters are smart enough to pay teachers competitive salaries to keep the good ones here. The next town over where they can't pass an operating levy, however, is experiencing mass exodus.
• Value of a good education... see previous point.
• Public education is not a free-market economy. In most places in the US, it's not like you can choose which district you're in.
• And here's an extra point... there aren't enough teachers to go around where I live. Florida is experiencing a shortage too, so much so that they have a site dedicated to recruiting and getting certified in Florida has to be the easiest of any state. It's not a buyer's market, dude. The NEA says 20% of new teachers leave the profession in three years or less. The feds are canceling student loans for teachers in urban areas. Even worse, the baby boomer retirement phenomenon (which will cause a shortage of workers in all professions) is expected to hit the teaching profession harder than most, just as the "millennials" drive head counts through the roof.

Now if you want to argue those points, be my guest, but don't ramble on about irrelevant nonsense or try to extrapolate what I supposedly think from a dozen words.

Finally, a little explanation and though rather than short inflammatory bits!

From an insiders perspective I can assure you that most claims of “teacher shortages” are completely made up. The districts love to use this tactic to keep the applicant pool loaded. I cannot attest to Florida or where you live. I can however attest to CCSD in NV, which is the 5th largest district in the country. Our district also feeds the media and “idiot voters” with claims of the mythical teacher shortage. The fact of the matter is that there are plenty of teachers who go unhired every year. My wife is able to fill any general position in an hour’s time, even 3 days before teachers are supposed to report. In my opinion, the “idiot” is NOT the voter, but the person who blindly believes propaganda put out by districts and especially the teacher’s union whose interest is driving up salaries without regard to educational needs! Keep in mind that our union in NV puts out the old tired argument that our staff is underpaid according to the National average. This same situation occurs in Ohio and Tennessee in the smaller rural districts. Again, I cannot attest to your specific area, but I know in Northwest Ohio they are laying teachers off. Maybe your area of Ohio can get some of these teachers?

If you are using the NEA as your source, and actually believe that they are a fair and unbiased entity when it comes to the discussion of teacher supplies and salaries, then that may explain our differing opinions.

As for “underpaid”---again I live it! What do you suggest is fair compensation for 10 weeks off in the summer, 2-3 weeks off at Christmas, never a weekend worked, and every major holiday at home? You call the voters “idiots”, so I can only assume that with your superior intelligence that you know the magic number that is a fair salary! I know I’ve lived a wonderful and comfortable life on a teacher’s salary that my own union and the NEA would tell the media is not fair. I travel. I have a pool and spa with palm trees surrounding. My house is small, but I live in a comfortable area, as do my teacher friends. I make student loan payments and credit card payments like everybody else. I’m slowly pulling out of debt that I incurred during college. My family has done the same in Ohio and Tennessee. I’m not sure how much you think teachers should make? To me, it is more than fair.

We agree that education is not a free-market entity. I think you are confusing the institution of education with the SELECTION and SALARIES of those who work in education. This process does indeed follow the tried and true supply and demand. See my previous posts about special education teachers demanding higher pay due to the actual shortage of qualified candidates. You’re being silly, if you continue to deny this simple truth. There is no way to explain additional bonuses and salary for special education teachers without admitting that the market forces indeed present themselves.

I enjoy this debate because I cannot lose. If enough voters buy into your argument that teachers are underpaid, this can only lead to increased salary for my wife and I which means more travel time for me with all my days off. If the majority of voters think like I do---salaries and benefits are more than fair---then the system works, as I believe it should.

In my opinion, throwing money at education is not the answer. See my Utah argument in the previous post. It is obvious that there is something more than money that affects the quality of education. We should find out what this “something” is and try to fix it, rather than throw money around!

There you have it! Education debate from the left and from the right all wrapped up in a coaster thread. May the readers decide which opinion they think has more merit!

*** This post was edited by Jeffrey R Smith 8/18/2004 10:23:07 AM ***
*** This post was edited by Jeffrey R Smith 8/18/2004 10:25:09 AM ***

Do you want a medal for being underpaid? You seem to be asking for one. And I'm not sure I get it since you're not even a teacher. I don't know what being a therapist in a school district has to do with teaching.

Las Vegas, hard as it might be to believe, is not the center of the universe. Nothing about that town is typical or representative of anything in this country.

Of course teachers get laid-off. That's because idiot voters don't pass operating levies and they can't pay teachers. It's has nothing to do with not needing them. The end result is larger class sizes.

There's no such thing as an over-paid teacher. Good teachers are responsible for the success I have today, and I can't put a price on that, but they might as well get more.

It's not a buyers' market. Tell all the jobless teachers in LV to come here or Florida, because there are plenty of jobs to go around. Universities are battling for students to get in their education programs. And like I said, it's going to get worse with the boomer retirements and "millennials" reaching school age. Every HR executive in the country knows that's coming, and they're getting the good people to fill jobs now before they have too many choices.

Your entire argument is based on what you see happening in Las Vegas. You've gotta do better than that.

Why try Jeff? There is no convincing you and you'll just lie to try and get your way. I guess I said nothing about Ohio and TN in my take.

Go ahead and lock this one down like you always do Jeff! Get your last word in and lock it up! :-) Better yet, delete my response and then lock it! Your game is old Jeff! You hijack a rollercoaster message board with ridiculous political commentary calling voters "idiots"! Somebody calls you on your stupidity (usually me), and you first make fun of the post (too long to read, etc), and then you can’t help but get your loud mouth back in the game by responding with gibberish that has no basis in reality. You start to lose the argument and then you hurry up with your last word, which you HAVE to have, and then lock it down. This did not need to be IF you followed your own message board rules, but you can’t help but get your ridiculous 2 cents in! “I’m Jeff---coaster guy---I’m smarter than you because I have cyberspace defenders!” LOL!

Who in the HELL are you to decide which vote is or is not correct? You’ve got an awfully big ego for some guy that has yet to have an original take on anything but CP! I guess we're all supposed to ignore your flames because you've started a coaster board (after riding all of 120 coasters in a tiny geographical area) AND think you are now the supreme voter who knows better than the voters themselves! Anybody else makes such a stupid statement and all your buddies rush in here to shout him or her down. You've got a free pass in the "idiot" department. You proudly whine awhile about your inability to read posts that are too large for your liking. And then talk about what a fine education your teachers gave you. I guess reading was not part of your curriculum. You put zero thought into your takes. You sound like a Democratic talking point. Do you have an original thought Jeff? Or do you just spew the thoughts of the NEA and Moveon.org! LOL!

I’ll keep waiting FOR ANYBODY to show me an article where ANY school is not filling a budgeted position this year because they just don’t have ANY teacher applicants. Special education is excluded. Good luck searching, it is NOT happening. If it were, do we not think this would be a part of the present presidential campaign? Again, back your smack up and show me where all these unfilled positions are located!

P.S. If you were just 1/10th as smart as you seem to think you are Jeff, you would know all about the IDEA laws and not have to make a ridiculous statement about physical therapists in public education! They are everywhere. You must have missed that in your talking points. Or maybe that law was just to long for you to read too!

P.P.S. Besides, we all know that coaster board fanboy is much more qualified to talk about education and “idiot voters” than somebody who works in public education! You really are great entertainment Jeff! There is no reality or fact in the world that is going to stop your BS!

I am a parent of children from college to elementary ages, the spouse of a Florida school board employee, a tax payer and a voter, I would suggest that you - Mr. Smith, rethink you take on the subject.

Personal attacks accomplish nothing but the erosion of your credibility.

We live in a world where you get what you pay for. We also live in a world where voters are stupid.

In my state, Presidential elections aside, the voter passed referendums to provide a minimum teacher student ratio. Sounds good right? Well, no, because they didn't say how to pay for it and refused to pass legislation to get any more funding.

We have a high speed rail project on the books we can't afford, and again, no way to pay for it.

Sounds like ill informed voters to me.

BTW, Florida is harder to get a teaching job because until very recently they did not accept out of state certification.

Coasterdad:

What is more personally insulting than calling voters who disagree with you, for whatever reason, stupid? I have no problem with Jeff, and now you, having differing opinions. You cross the line when you start calling people "stupid" because they do not vote the way you would like.

Jeff thinks teachers are underpaid. I do not. I've provided details of my own life and details about the overall compensation that Jeff, and now you have yet to defend. I'm tired of Jeff misrepresenting my argument, or flat out ignoring the argument, then sneaking in and locking down threads AFTER he gets the last word. He does this all the time. If you take this as a personal attack, then I am sorry. I take it as a personal attack when Jeff says:

"you just bore the crap out of me"

I find it funny that he gets a free pass to come on here and call people “idiots” and make statements like this without any guys like you coming on here and chastising him! Why the double standard? Or is it only fair to insult people IF they agree with your views? I did not realize that believing teachers are paid fairly and voters are not idiots would be such a polarizing issue! I even took the time to describe why I believe what I do rather than throw out a few insulting sentences with no reasoning. Still it is not enough! Unless I just let inflammatory statements that insult my beliefs, and in this case, my livelihood, go unchecked, I’m open to Jeff’s unchallenged opinions that are sure to be followed with defenders that overlook his brashness to concentrate on my failures! LOL!

As for your take:

"the voter passed referendums to provide a minimum teacher student ratio. Sounds good right? Well, no, because they didn't say how to pay for it and refused to pass legislation to get any more funding."

You have a good point. It bypasses the republic form of government and gets into direct Democracy. Each individual vote MAY have merits on its own though. This does not mean that those who vote one way or another are "idiots." They have differing opinions.

The real problem that has lead to these ridiculous referendums is an activist judicial branch (which we've all seen in FL and NV too) that likes to legislate from the bench. They make law rather than interpret law. Voters have gotten tired of this and turned to the "referendum" as a way to bypass overzealous judges who constantly strike down the will of the people. This is also a way to bypass an unresponsive legislative body.

It is a chicken and egg scenario at this point of time that will not change. I agree that the unfunded mandate through the use of referendums is a disaster scenario though!

Again, I ask you or anybody to tell me what is a fair salary for a teacher. I'm sure it feels good to say, "There's no such thing as an over-paid teacher." It takes no effort or thought to make such a statement, but it is ridiculous at face value. We cannot give teachers infinite salaries, so I'm asking ANYBODY to tell me what is fair? I've described the full lifestyle I'm able to live on this supposed "underpaid" salary. I'll wait for you guys who apparently think you know better than I do, to tell me why I am underpaid and what I should be paid! I must be mistaken in thinking providing for my family, as my mother (teacher/nurse) did before me on such a wimpy salary. It has served me well, yet it appears some of you feel sorry for people like me and desire to give me a handout! How much should this handout be? Let me know so I can decide which salary level I will need to achieve before I can be happy again.

"BTW, Florida is harder to get a teaching job because until very recently they did not accept out of state certification."

Careful there...this statement would seem to indicate that FL limited the SUPPLY of teachers and therefore, it was hard to get a teacher job. How could this be?

Jeff has told us "public education is not a free-market economy."

Yet the old rules of supply and demand seem to have reared their ugly head in Florida right in the middle of this public institution.

Hmmm...who has been arguing this point to no avail?

---

Go ahead and lock this one down like you always do Jeff! Get your last word in and lock it up! :-) Better yet, delete my response and then lock it! Your game is old Jeff! This did not need to be IF you followed your own message board rules... You’ve got an awfully big ego for some guy that has yet to have an original take on anything but CP! You put zero thought into your takes. Do you have an original thought Jeff? If you were just 1/10th as smart as you seem to think you are Jeff...

---

Well done. Tight responses to my points. Personal attacks, name calling and "poor picked on me" responses make for great debating. Thanks for sending me $20, by the way.

---

I’ll keep waiting FOR ANYBODY to show me an article where ANY school is not filling a budgeted position this year because they just don’t have ANY teacher applicants.

---

Since you asked, without looking further than my own and two adjacent districts, look here, here and here (then keep in mind this doesn't even cover the sub jobs). School starts next week. If you really want some fun, head down to the Columbus area here or here.

So what's next... another couple hundred words where you call me names some more?

Your links fail to prove any unfilled positions! Every school makes last minute hires. My wife is doing it now! All positions will be filled because there are plenty of applicants out there!

Show me the stories next week about how schools could not open and the children could not attend 1st grade because there was just NO 1st grade teacher who applied! LOL

P.S. If you are going to put up links that have NOTHING to do with the argument, at least be smart enough NOT to put up links for special education positions, which only furthers my case.

I'm still waiting for that quote on what IS the correct salary for teachers are since you are the expert!

By the way I was glad to give the $20! You provide a valuable service that I'm more than willing to pay for. I pay people to cut my palm trees and clean my toilets too! Actually, they get a lot more than $20/year! You should really increase the rates. I can afford more! You can do a lot on teacher's salary! :-)

---

I’ll keep waiting FOR ANYBODY to show me an article where ANY school is not filling a budgeted position this year because they just don’t have ANY teacher applicants... All positions will be filled because there are plenty of applicants out there!

---

Right... Worthington is trying to fill jobs the week before school starts because there was no problem filling the positions all summer long. You keep changing the rules.

Why don't you call me some more names? That seemed to be working better for you.

Hold that thought while I grab the popcorn and bottlecaps. :)

Seriously, I am sure the pay scale for teacher's salaries is dictated by location and average income bracket of the district the said school is in.

You can't expect low-income families to rush and vote for salary increases for teachers. While education is extremely important, families still have to pay the rent, utilities, food, etc.

While I am glad that alot of people choose the teaching profession, they know before pursuing this career that salaries are not to high.

O.K., Jeff and Jeffrey can now resume their disagreements. :)

Testing! Testing! Can Jeff allow this thread to end without getting the last word! Let us see. Can he do it? Time will tell. He has done a little better this time around. Usually by now he gets all upset and locks it up!

STILL waiting for that quote about exactly how much is enough money for teachers from the self-proclaimed expert? Still waiting! Waiting? LOL

"Careful there...this statement would seem to indicate that FL limited the SUPPLY of teachers and therefore, it was hard to get a teacher job. How could this be?"

There is nothing to be careful of, Florida did procedurally limit the supply of teachers. Your point is?

As for whether or not I agree or disagree, civility is more of the point here. Teacher's salaries can be fair. In my county, teachers are paid for 1485 hours a year, real facts - not made up. That puts a $40K a year teacher at just under $27 per hour. A decent wage by any standard. But then compare teachers to other professions, both trade and academic. A certified mechanic can make $35 per hour easy. Plumbers, around $45. Lawyers, $50, doctors, $75. These numbers are gross, after expenses. Do you see the problem here? The guy who fixes your car makes more than the person who teaches your child how to read.

COASTERDAD:

I think you and I agree. It is Jeff (maybe you are confusing us) who argues that there is no supply and demand when it comes to teaching because it is a public institution. He did so in this post responding to my take:

"It's a good thing you're not in charge. Clearly you have no idea what the value of education is. Public education is not a free-market economy, it's a public institution."

If you can figure out what he is arguing, then you are smarter than I. Also, I ask you again, who was it that brought incivility to this thread? Please go back and look at the progression. I stated my opinion and this is the response I get! It may be a lot of reading, and you may have missed it. But above I said the following BEFORE the insults started flying:

"This is a simple supply and demand issue!

There are plenty of teachers willing to work for the pay offered. It is a degree that is relatively easy to obtain versus those degrees that lead to higher wages (MD, MBA, law, etc). This, along with an obvious friendly work environment (in terms of work hours and vacation days) leads to an ample supply of qualified teachers.

This is really a chicken and egg scenario. IF there was a REAL teacher shortage, then there would not be enough teachers to meet the needs and voters would act accordingly to assure increased salaries. As it is, there is no REAL shortage, so there is no incentive to affect change in salary structure. There are plenty of people, like myself, that are happy to work for less money because we perceive the overall compensation to be worth it.

Furthermore, in my opinion, a salary increase should/would be followed by a comparable increase in the quality of student, and probably the standard thresh hold, at the college level who enter into education. It is sad, that the college of education is usually one of the least stringent, if not THE LEAST STRINGENT of all colleges to get accepted into on any given campus. This alone shows the priority that society puts on an educator is not that high."

Now c'mon coasterdad, you know Mr. Smith just wants to pontificate and cast aspersions....Why do you have to go and ruin his day by introducing facts into this discussion??? ;)

On a separate (yet similar) topic regarding stupid voters, four years ago in my (old - I moved to a neighboring town last fall) town lost a referendum to build a new library. The main reason they lost? Yuppies on the west side of town in the new developments didn't want to have to go to the downtown area to the library (nevermind that according to the long-standing gift that created the library - the library had to remain in the downtown district area).

So the following year, the main library building referendum was changed to add a satellite branch on the west side of town with a separate referendum for funding as is required by law.

Voters approved building a new main library and branch library on the west side of town. But the funding for the branch was voted down. The library had enough bonds to fund the main library but they said after the vote they could not afford to build or staff the satellite due to not getting the funding approved.

They have not tried since to get additional funding for the branch library.

Meanwhile the library administrators got what they wanted - a new main library in the downtown area - without any satellite branches.

And, no, I am not making this up, just ask Chitown - we lived in the same town.

"maybe you are confusing us"
I am not confusing you, I clearly know the difference.

I agree that teachers are paid a decent living wage. What I do not agree with is that the wage is enough.

I also agree with Jeff (Putz) that voters who place education on a lower prioriy are stupid. Maybe selfish is the more accurate word.

Do you know that tax levies fail over money when the net cost to a home owner is under $50 per year. That's less than $5 per month, about 14 cents a day. Under five dollars a month? Plus in your area (Clark County, NV), there are many more renters than owners, so the property tax increases are felt even less, as rent increases are common, and the extra $4.17 per $100,000 value is much less when spread across several apartments.

"Why do you have to go and ruin his day by introducing facts into this discussion???"

Sorry redman, I am a researcher by profession, and somehow facts seemed approriate.

Edited to fix odd formatting
*** This post was edited by CoasterDad64 8/19/2004 11:30:30 AM ***