Talon...

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coasterdude318 said:

Now, could someone please tell me where Talon has airtime?

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On the midcourse drop into the turn where your photo is taken and after the helix in that dippy-piece before the end.

It's almost non-existant in the front half of the train, but in the back half (oddly enough it seems row 6 was the best) it's more pronounced.

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(for instance, I adore Kraken)

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Amen.

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immelman=inverted dive loop on a BM

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No.

What is an inverted dive loop on a BM then?

First, I like to go off-topic an echo the positive remarks for Kraken. I *still* think that coaster is the blueprint on how to desgin/engineer a coaster for a major park.

Anyway, I cannot say where Talon is on my list of inverts. I mean, I guess I like it more than the bottom tier (Ice, Raptor, Great Bear) and not as much as the top tier (Montu, TG:TJC) so its right there in the middle tier (w/ Alpie, B:TR, Fire).

But let's be honest, top to bottom, *all* the B&M inverts are good. Whatever coaster you think is the "worst" of the group, it is *still* better than a ton of other rides. I've also noticed, that there is absolutely *no* consensus among enthusisats about what is the "worst" of the inverts. Sure, there is the knock on Alpie as being "forceless" (which I disagree with as it has the most 'snappy' cobra roll of them all, IMO), but even then no one calls it "bad".

Bottom line, if you see a B&M invert, you may safely assume that it is a good ride until further notice.

lata, jeremy

Jeremy, I direct you to this quote:

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Mamoosh said:
In fact the taller B&M has made an inverted the less I like it. Alpengeist was a forceless bore to me.

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Now, maybe Moosh is exaggerating, or perhaps just comparing it to the other inverts he's ridden...I don't know. But to me, 'forceless bore' suggests a pretty lousy ride. Something like Iron Dragon comes to mind. Or the kiddie ride with the little Jeeps that go in a circle. ;) I can't imagine actually being bored on any coaster, much less a coaster like Alpengeist.

But, I could just be misinterpreting (and reading too much into) what Moosh said. Am I?

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2Hostyl said:
Bottom line, if you see a B&M invert, you may safely assume that it is a good ride until further notice.

lata, jeremy

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Hallelujah! Even the worst of the B&M inverts are better than a good SLC...;)

Talon is the only inverted coaster that my girlfriend will ride more than once. I guess that has to say something. She has to be the absolute pickiest quasi enthusiast I know. But I love her nonetheless.

Maybe I'm putting words in mouths (or mouth in this case) but I would guess Moosh was just speaking relative to other B&M inverts. I don't think many would consider Alpie a forceless bore when comparing it to most SLC's, most arrow loopers, or a ton of other junk out there.

B&M (afaik) has yet to produce in inverted dive loop. The immelman is half loop up, then twist down and can be found on a handful of sitdowns (Wildfire, S:AdA) as well as a ton of inverts. The dive loop is twist up, then half loop down.

First of all I believe the inversion on Wildfire is still called a diving loop, not an immelman (at least I have never heard it called such) and when the element first came out people I remember people anoucing it as "BM's first dive loop on an inverted coaster dubbed the immelman."

Ive allways been under the impression that that immelman is to dive loop as cobra roll is to batwing (ala Drachon Fire).

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Jeff said:
I want Talon to be better than Raptor. If I wasn't such a fanboy, it might be.

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I hear ya. The flat spin on Talon is smoother than Raptor's, but they took the snap out of it.

Talon is outstanding. It's my third-favorite inverted, behind Raptor and Fire Dragon.

Touchdown - actually, Wildfire's first inversion is indeed an Immelman. Check out RCDB's Element Cross Reference Report, it's a great tool.

I stand corrected.

I'm usually sitting when I'm corrected ;)

Hmmm...I've never noticed any airtime on Talon. Fire Dragon yes, but not Talon. Maybe it's not very pronounced (or maybe I need to seat in this mystical "row six" :) ) but I don't recall getting any. But I'll pay more attention next time!

Touchdown: "Dive Loop" and "Immelman" refer to the direction of travel through the element. They're actually identically-shaped, but the train travels through them in different directions.

Dive Loop (note the direction of travel):
http://www.rcdb.com/installationgallery94.htm?Picture=4
http://www.rcdb.com/installationgallery94.htm?Picture=1

Immelman (again, note the direction of travel):
http://www.rcdb.com/installationgallery735.htm?Picture=17
http://www.rcdb.com/installationgallery277.htm?Picture=1
http://www.rcdb.com/installationgallery1366.htm?Picture=20 (far upper right)

Wildfire is a B&M sitdown coaster with an immelman (unfortunately I cannot find a good picture of it). The path traveled is the exact same one as in the Talon and Alpengeist pictures (above).

Does that clear this up at all?

-Nate (who would almost call Montu "boring"...and actually prefers a few SLC's to Montu)

Edit: well, maybe I didn't need to spend all that time writing this up! *** Edited 4/7/2004 5:58:01 AM UTC by coasterdude318***

What are you trying to say about the picture of S:AdA? It's neither the only dive loop, nor the only immelman on a sitdown/floorless...

Sorry, that was a mistake (and I've edited it to reflect the truth). Of course, I meant to say the only immelman...but then I realized Wildfire had one (and still forgot to change it). Thanks for drawing my attention to that.

-Nate

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ApolloAndy said:
Bah. While Great Bear has a unique layout, I just found it lack luster. It felt way too much like it was spending too much time weaving in, out, and around other rides and not enough time doing anything productive.

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Ah, but that it's charm, right?

I guess I'm the odd-man-out, I really appreciate the ride's antics..

HAHA, your a little late, almost 2 years ago I noticed and claimed that Talon looked VERY similar to an SLC, yet I wouldn't boast that to any B&M purist or hardcore enthusiest.... *** Edited 4/12/2004 12:59:47 AM UTC by mike.s.***

I don't know. I think that the bigger they are, the more fun they are. Although I have to admit that B:TR is much more intense than Talon. I really enjoy the oversized loops and immelmans even though my favorite moment on an invert is on Dueling Dragons at IOA on the red dragon on the camel hump over the twist. That provides pure "floatage" and is so much fun. *** Edited 4/12/2004 1:43:35 AM UTC by coasterMNguy...***

haux- I also noticed the lack of snap in the flat spin. It was very disappointing. It doesn't stop Talon from being a great ride though.

You can call me crazy if you want to, Great Bear is my favorite B&M invert. Maybe I'm just a lunatic...;)