# Steel Vengeance closed for minor accident

Wednesday, June 6, 2018 12:45 PM

Folks are stating all over the internets that the midcourse block is trimming when trains enter that area, for what you describe above as "overspeed". Assuming these very enthusiasts are the ones programming the midcourse block to trim during after hours cycling and that is in fact why the midcourse is being utilized as a trim, let's look at the following:

If the midcourse block is set to trim the train to a certain speed and is activated based on the speed a train enters the brake section - wouldn't it be logical to say that any "trimless" rides are occurring because the train is already traveling at the reduced rate of speed the sensors and then brakes are looking to achieve? With this logic, the second half of the ride would be identical because regardless of whether or not the trims slowed the train to said speed or it was not traveling fast enough for the trim to activate, it would leave the area at roughly the same speed. Therefore, all of the butthurt enthusiasts who are saying the second half of the ride is now "ruined" with the midcourse block being used as a trim would be mistaken. It would actually be the first half of the ride that is likely having some very minor variation of speed due to any number of environmental conditions (weather/temperature, train weight, wheels, etc) and the midcourse trims are being used to get the trains to a uniform rate of speed for the second half of the course.

Of course none of this matters to me because I got one of those coveted Opening Day rides on the "real" Steel Vengeance.Getting my t-shirt made now.

#science

Last edited by BrettV, Wednesday, June 6, 2018 12:46 PM
Wednesday, June 6, 2018 1:57 PM

RollrCoastrCrazy said:

I simply meant that spending a bunch of time doing math to disprove me isn't really worth much when you can just put 2 videos beside each other and see the situation for what it is.

Others explained why your observations were incorrect, with math and science. Are you suggesting the math and science are not valid?

Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog - Music: The Modern Gen-X - Video

Wednesday, June 6, 2018 2:11 PM

Math and science have no place on internet forums.

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Wednesday, June 6, 2018 4:56 PM

If you're looking up from the ground at the midcourse brake you can see when a train leaves it far less quickly than the other train.

Whatever caused that is completely irrelevant, overspeed, train differences, first half sped - whatever. Your eyeballs can look up at the brake and see when a train leaves it much slower, meaning that the second half is going to be slower.

Man, this is rocket science!

The ride is amazing either way, but you're fooling yourself if you're suggesting that a faster second half isn't a good thing. Sometimes you just get that extra little "oomph" through the final bunny hills and it is awesome.

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Wednesday, June 6, 2018 4:58 PM

Did you know that Millennium Force can hit 100 MPH on windy days? I can tell from looking at it.

Last edited by ApolloAndy, Wednesday, June 6, 2018 4:58 PM

Hobbes: "What's the point of attaching a number to everything you do?"
Calvin: "If your numbers go up, it means you're having more fun."

Wednesday, June 6, 2018 5:00 PM

Clearly the people who had the bestest ride ever were the ones in the train that went so fast that it ended up in the station along with the other one.

Wednesday, June 6, 2018 6:18 PM

RollrCoastrCrazy,
You’re not getting it.

When you notice a train slowing down in the midcourse, it is a controlled amount of braking to permit the train to exit the midcourse at a specified speed. If some trains are not being trimmed, you will not notice a difference in speed, but that does not mean they are not exiting the midcourse at the same speed, which, they are.

Last edited by Gaga Tatt Monster, Wednesday, June 6, 2018 6:18 PM
Wednesday, June 6, 2018 8:10 PM

I think you might be the one that isn't getting it though, let me try to re-explain. On Monday and Tuesday it was very clear that *some* trains get trimmed and leave the midcourse slower than trains that didn't get hit, regardless of why that occurred. It's very clear when you watch, some of them crawl out of the block and some of them fly off w/ ejector air in the back. I just explained above that the end result doesn't really matter, I was wrong to worry about anything like "neutering", the 2nd half is great regardless... the only difference noticeable is the intensity of the drop off the MCBR and the final bunny hops. That's it. It's still intense, it's still great, but there is a difference. Unless you've had both a trimmed and non-trimmed ride I'm unsure of how you could give that opinion.

Some trains leave the midcourse slower than others do due to the MCBR - that's a fact - it doesn't really matter why it happens ultimately does it? Both experiences are still the best coaster in the world (imo), I can't praise the ride enough, but don't put your head in the sand and say that every train leaves the MCBR at the same speed, because they don't, very clearly.

Last edited by RollrCoastrCrazy, Wednesday, June 6, 2018 8:11 PM
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Wednesday, June 6, 2018 8:40 PM

RideMan, want to chime in on this one?

If I recall correctly, doesn't the speed at which the train crests the hill have little to no effect on the speed once it reaches the bottom of the hill? Of course a train cresting the same hill at 10mph should certain be going slower at the bottom than if it crested at 100mph. But I seem to remember this being argued some time ago on here.

Wednesday, June 6, 2018 9:24 PM

ApolloAndy said:

Did you know that Millennium Force can hit 100 MPH on windy days? I can tell from looking at it.

Yeah, it did, thats how the green train was lost to the lake.

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Wednesday, June 6, 2018 9:51 PM

No everyone else is getting it. If a train not full in cooler weather hits the MCBR at a designed speed of 52 mph and leaves without a trim break hitting, that’s absolutely no different than a train full at 6pm on a hot day hitting the MCBR and getting trimmed *and still leaving the midcourse* at 52 mph for the rest of the course. It’s still dropping off at the same designed speed.

You’re simply seeing it being slowed down to that speed from a faster speed. You are not seeing it leave at a speed lower than 52mph. THATS physics.

Your perception f the trimmed train slowing is different. But the train is still leaving at the same speed.

Edit: here’s an easier explanation-if the trim hits in those instances, the speed after the trim isn’t what’s different. The speed before it was faster than it should have been. That’s the exception. Not the speed after.

Last edited by Tekwardo, Wednesday, June 6, 2018 10:02 PM

Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.

Thursday, June 7, 2018 8:33 AM

Me, I'm just pleased that on 06/20-06/22, I will be riding SV for the first time and it's now back to 2 train operation. Plus, it is back on the Fast Lane Plus pass list. Win-win.

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Thursday, June 7, 2018 10:19 AM

It’s the same argument that always makes me laugh when enthusiasts brag about getting a trimless Magnum night ride during Halloweekends when the temps go down to the 40s and even upper 30s after sunset. The ride is going slow enough when it hits the trim in the pretzel turn that it doesn’t need to be slowed down for the return run. Your trip through the final bunny hops is likely no different than it is on a hot summer day, but the trip out to the pretzel on the big hills is slow enough for the trims not to be activated.

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Thursday, June 7, 2018 2:02 PM

But are magnum’s trims speed activated?

Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.

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Thursday, June 7, 2018 2:42 PM

I wonder the same thing. Are they still running the same PLCs and program as when the ride was installed? If so, it's probably not speed activated.

Hi

Thursday, June 7, 2018 3:07 PM

It's a switch they can turn on and off, as far as I know. I think there was/is some protocol about who can switch it. I've been out of the loop for a few years, but I do believe there was a control system revision at some point, because it used to be that if you ran three trains and you set up the ride with the third train stopped on the safeties next to the lift, someone had to manually run out there to release it. I don't think that's the case anymore.

Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog - Music: The Modern Gen-X - Video

Thursday, June 7, 2018 10:02 PM

RollrCoastrCrazy said:

I think you might be the one that isn't getting it though, let me try to re-explain. On Monday and Tuesday it was very clear that *some* trains get trimmed and leave the midcourse slower than trains that didn't get hit, regardless of why that occurred. It's very clear when you watch, some of them crawl out of the block and some of them fly off w/ ejector air in the back.

Could it be that when a train enters the mid-course trim in a overspeed condition it gets trimmed a little slower than a train that didn't overspeed because of the anticipation that the train will overspeed on the second half if not trimmed slower? In other words, the goal is to have all trains finish the course in about the same time period regardless of conditions.

I'd rather be in my boat with a drink on the rocks, than in the drink with a boat on the rocks.

Thursday, June 7, 2018 10:38 PM

I don't know the complexities of the Steel Vengeance trims, but I do know a bit about the Magnum trims. They are simple, dumb brakes adjusted by someone timing trains from the time the train drops off the lift to the time it hits the safeties. Actually, I think the new control system times the trains now so you don't have to do it with a stopwatch. A "normal" time would be about 60 seconds. If they're getting times below 58 seconds, they'll call and have maintenance increase the air pressure on the trim brakes. If the time is above 62, they'll also call and ask to have the pressure reduced. The operator can only turn them on or off. They can't adjust the pressure.

When I worked there, we were allowed to disengage the trims if the train was more than 1/3 empty. They'd also be off if it was cool and or windy and the trains were coming back at above 58 or so seconds without them. Although it was not officially approved, they'd often be turned off for the last train of the night even if it was a full train. It also happened for some ERT events. Make fun of the people bragging about trimless Magnum rides all you want, but they really are better. It's not so much the speed, but more the smoothness of the train as it goes through the pretzel. For some reason, the trims just get the train shimmying back and forth and make the pretzel rougher in my opinion. Without them, it seems to glide right through.

There was an attempt to program some intelligence into the Magnum trims when they redid the control system a few years back, but as far as I know, they went back to the old way because of issues with empty trains getting slammed with trims and nearly rolling back. Without knowing weight of the train and the conditions like wind speed/direction and temperature, it's hard to do it perfectly in programming. Just because the previous train was flying doesn't mean the next one will be too if it's empty.

I suspect the Steel Vengeance trims are a bit more "intelligent" and perhaps they're still experimenting with them. From watching some videos, it seems to me that the train is not always exiting the block at the same speed. But there might be other factors taken into account. Are they trying to go for a consistent exit speed or are they trying to go for a consistent ride time? A full train on a hot day could exit the brake slowly, but still gain speed throughout the rest of the course. If it's cold, the exit speed might be faster, but the time from dropping off the lift to brakes might still be slower.

-Matt

Thursday, June 7, 2018 11:49 PM

I can’t underline enough how simple my point is. Regardless of all of this discussion of WHY a train might be trimmed some trains still leave the block notably slower than others. It’s probably because they entered the MCBR faster but then they get slowed down enough that the 2nd half is slower than normal.

They leave the block slower, they travel the second half slightly slower, and they hit the final few *insane* bunny hops at noticeably less insane speeds. Maybe you won’t get it until you ride a few times and see how the system penalizes a train that hauls through the first half more than it does an appropriately paced train through the first half. Your 2nd half of steel Vengeance will be more intense if the MCBR does not trim you. Period imo. That isn’t some complicated math issue... you leave the block faster you end the 2nd half faster.

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Friday, June 8, 2018 12:17 AM

Underline all you want, because of physics, it doesn't materially alter the ride experience, for all of the reasons that have been explained.

Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog - Music: The Modern Gen-X - Video