Six Flags Removes Confederate Flags From Its Parks

It turns into a whose feelings are more important sort of game. The originally offended person/group or the one being asked to change their natural state of being or preferred behavior to appease the other even if it's not causing any actual harm.

Paisley said:

It turns into a whose feelings are more important sort of game.

Kind of. But I don't see my argument as feeling based. It's not that I feel a certain way if I have to temper myself, it's that I don't like the idea of restricting people...conformity...being told how to live. That whole mindset.

It seems we're shifting from a society that values freedom to one that values protection.

I think there's concessions to be made on boths sides of that, but as I've said too many times already, I'm more ok with making the necessary concessions on the freedom side than the protection side.

Lord Gonchar said:

I think it's more selfish to expect people to bend to my sensibilities than for me to allow people to generally be themselves and avoid what I don't like. I extend that logic to everyone.

This I agree with, but I don't know that this extends logically to flags and statues on public grounds (or even if you're trying to make that extension).

Confederate flags and statues don't belong on public grounds because people cannot avoid paying taxes that are ostensibly used to maintain those public grounds.

What about other things that are on public grounds that various groups find offensive? Still supported by taxes which people cannot avoid.

You mean like nativity scenes? I agree those are offensive as well. :-)

GoBucks89 said:

What about other things that are on public grounds that various groups find offensive? Still supported by taxes which people cannot avoid.

It comes down to what does this potentially offensive thing represent, and to how large a group.

If Tesla fans (the guy, not the band) are offended at Edison statues, schools, streets, etc., then so be it. Edison by himself doesn't stand for something oppressive, nor do people display Edison Flags to be purposefully offensive, while claiming "Edison Heritage".

But when you have a statue of someone that represents something oppressive, like the Confederacy, that's different. I go back to Jeff's Hitler statement. I value free speech. Germany decided to ban Naziism, took down the monuments, etc. You can't get arrested for being a racist or Nazi here (and I totally agree with that). I'm very much a "You have rights that extends as far as where someone else's rights (Not feelings) end.

I don't get offended by certain words like Tranny or Retarded that have now become widely unacceptable, but because more and more people are offended by those terms, I don't use them. At least not around the people that would be offended, and that tends to have the effect of me not saying them around anyone so as not to offend. But I get WHY those words have become offensive to people. Just like Faggot. Just like Racial Slurs. Its like why the term 'colored' isn't used to describe someone with brown skin. Most older people that used that term weren't doing it to be offensive, it was a term used. Now its fallen out of favor and people don't use it. Was that word particularly offensive? In that context, it became so.

Having said that, I look at Intent behind something someone says or does before I typically get offended. (And I mean really offended, I don't mean it's on coasterbuzz and lets have a discussion). Its like insult comedy. I give most comics a lot of leeway, esp. insult comics, because that's what they do. That's why I tune in or buy tickets. And if someone doesn't like what they say, then don't go see them.

When Michael Richards (Cramer) started calling people in the audience the N word, he wasn't doing that to be funny. He wasn't being ironic, he wasn't being anything other than hateful because they were disrupting his show, and I found that to be offensive. When Tosh made his rape jokes, I didn't care one bit. If you know he makes those jokes, don't support him. But Michael Richards didn't make those jokes before that one time. Tosh did. Don't show up and get mad when someone does something they're known for.

I personally don't have any issues with the 6 flags flying over Texas or Georgia's theme parks. I doubt most people know what it even means, more so because when was the last time any of the parks in that chain (where all but three never had actual 6 flags fly over them that weren't just colored flags) used the 6 flags origin to market or theme anything? And most people aren't going to look and know what that particular flag is because it's not the flag that causes most people to react or offend. I don't have any issues with them being taken down either.

The argument that people will forget history because bla bla bla... is always ridiculous to me anywho. We already live in a government that whitewashes most of our history. Most governments (If not all) do that. I mean, how many people today are taught that the US had Internment Camps for Japanese? How many are taught about things like the Tukaseegee study? The 1838 Mormon War? Or how badly the government treated Native Americans (Oh, wait, that still goes on...)?

Regardless, saying that taking down statues takes away history is like saying allowing consenting adults to have sex will lead to beastiality or pedophilia becoming legal.

extremecoasterdad said:
And Gonch, I think you can extend that to many things. I know that there are some Christians who avoid rated R movies because they find them offensive.

I like this statement. There are things that offend me, and I just avoid them. There might be songs that have a great sound or movies that I really want to see, but I don't because they have situations I'd consider offensive. I'm not going to demand that they change to suit my sensibilities. I know that businesses have a financial obligation, if to no one but themselves, to seek to maximize profit, and that's why as much as I might think that Six Flags is somewhat overreacting, I'm not really opposed to their decision. It's the same thing that I said earlier about how I'm not opposed to, and probably even in favor of, taking down statues of confederate generals, leaders, etc.

I do question the motives of a lot of people who act like they're joining the right side of history on this, though. It's 2017. These statues have been up for a good long time and it's perplexing to me how many people who never expressed any distaste for this sort of thing in the past suddenly want to act as if it's some great offense to them. That's bandwagoning, and it seems to happen constantly.

To add to what you are saying Sirloin, if there would have been any time in history where it would have seemed to be appropriate to begin removing Confederate statues, it would have been during the Obama administration. Yet not even once did he or anyone else call for their removal. I would also like to know how this will improve race relations. Wanna make a real difference? Get citizens together in a reasonable forum to discuss how we can begin to do so. I call this a nice gesture and that's about it.

I'd argue that it should've been done before any of us were ever born. I agree that this issue seems pretty cut and dry, especially in the context of Germany, but Germany got it right. They sought to exterminate any glorification of a horrific regime pretty quickly from the sounds of it. Why did it take us so long?

Now, I don't think many of us were probably fully aware of all of these statues, nor would I have expected a lot of people to be. I'd hardly expect someone in Montana to know who is commemorated in statue form in South Carolina, for example. In that sense, I get the delay, perhaps.

However, how many of us have walked through the gates of Six Flags Over Texas and Six Flags Over Georgia and never raised issue with the Confederate flags? We approach this issue from the side of denouncing those in favor of keeping the statues instead of admitting that we just screwed up and maybe should have done this a long time ago. Those on the right side of history need to stop resorting to the tactics of those on the wrong side of history because it really makes it hard to take anyone seriously.

I think it absolutely helps race relations to remove them. And it's predicated on the fact that a statute's very purpose is to honor someone's acts during their lifetime. Someone who did something good.

Why should African American's tax dollars go towards memorializing someone who fought and killed to keep a race of people enslaved? That was not a good thing.

Even if the cost is negligible now, why should they have these constant reminders of this misguided "Honor" in their neighborhood?

Part of the tension in race relations comes from the fact that some in favor of keeping the statues are not acknowledging how ****ty it probably feels for people of color to see these statues in their neighborhood.

I've heard arguments for removing confederate statues for the last thirty years, and have agreed for quite some time. They just seem to finally be getting taken seriously and then you have groups that are offended that they're being removed.

I see it less of trying to be on the right side of history now and more of trying to finally rallying people to a cause when the iron is hot.

Lord Gonchar said:
I think it's more selfish to expect people to bend to my sensibilities than for me to allow people to generally be themselves and avoid what I don't like.

Who is even asking for this in the context of removing symbols of slavery?

It seems we're shifting from a society that values freedom to one that values protection.

While certainly a problem (safe spaces and what not), I think it's unfair to lump that kind of thing in with the general desire for people to just not be such assholes to each other on issues of race, gender and such. A little empathy isn't going to chap anyone's ass.

extremecoasterdad said:

Sorry for the double post, but I did have a roommate whom was black and lived with me for 4 years rent free. I did it to allow him to get back on his feet as he was down and out. We had been neighbors in the same apartment building and when things happened to him, I helped him out. I would say that's probably not something a lot of other folks have done for a fellow human being. We became the best of friends. I used to hang out with several people who were his friends and even had "permission" to use the word nigga in reference to them or myself as they respected me and I them.

Are you friggin kidding me?!?!?! How old are you?

Yes. I saw that post to be very racist within the subtext. It's the "white savior narrative" of many popular movies. Then it slams you with, "and the black people respected me so much for all I do for them that they didn't even mind me calling them N*****.

I'm not saying that extremecoasterdad is a bad person. That post tells me that he wants to be a good person. Sometimes it takes someone to point out a flaw for us to see it. "You have a booger hanging out of your nose."

As a member of a minority myself, I always chuckle (privately, of course, not to offend) when I encounter well-meaning statements like that.
My favorite:
"Say, do you know 'so and so' and 'so and so'? They're gay"
My response:
"Gosh, sorry, no... I try to know them all, but I just can't."

Bless their hearts, anyway.

(+1 to anyone who knows the movie)

The Family Stone

The removal of Confederate monuments and flags is an issue that has been simmering for quite a few years, now and then flaring up with various incidents. What's different now is the 'coming out' (if I may co-opt a term from the gay movement) of alt-right groups. In the wake of Trump's ascendancy, hordes of KKK and new-Nazi and white supremacists have begun coming out of the woodwork, unmasked, in numbers not seen in many decades. They feel (and to a certain degree, *are*) empowered, enough to make bold and aggressive appearances nationwide. These monuments are natural rallying points, and hence flash points between these horrid groups and those opposed to them.

Charlottesville was definitely a wakeup call, both in the nation's understanding of how potent and violent these hard right groups are, and in just how malignant these monuments are as symbols of racist hatred. Belatedly, municipalities and universities are hurrying to get rid of them before more harm can come from their presence.

So, there's no 'bandwagon'. Just people coming to the belated realization that there's a horrible tumor in their midst, and seeking emergency surgery to get rid of it.

That's a great way to put it. I don't feel there's a bandwagon to jump on because as I said, I've been hearing for most of my life about how confederate statues were divisive. I'd say if you think this is new, to broaden your friendships outside of a bubble and realize that there are large groups of people that always felt this way. They're just finally being heard.

delan said:

extremecoasterdad said:

Sorry for the double post, but I did have a roommate whom was black and lived with me for 4 years rent free. I did it to allow him to get back on his feet as he was down and out. We had been neighbors in the same apartment building and when things happened to him, I helped him out. I would say that's probably not something a lot of other folks have done for a fellow human being. We became the best of friends. I used to hang out with several people who were his friends and even had "permission" to use the word nigga in reference to them or myself as they respected me and I them.

Are you friggin kidding me?!?!?! How old are you?

The real point of the story, obviously missed by you and others here is that I helped out another human being. I am not going to rehash the conversation about how it all came to be that they told me it was ok to use that word. It's not like I asked to do so. I even put the word permission in quotes as that was the best word I could think of at that moment. I would suggest reading the rest of the discussion instead of cherry picking what you wanted to in a sorry attempt to make me look bad.