Six Flags Announces Nation's Best Theme Park VIP Program
^^ It's not twisted logic, although your example very clearly illustrates what I'm getting at. Parks offer ERT to coaster enthusiasts, which is something not offered to members of the general public, but that ERT never comes at the expense of the general public. Virtual queing is, in essence, a park closing an hour early and offering that time to coaster enthusiasts. It means guests that paid for a park experience lasting until 9:00 suddenly got an hour of time taken away from them because a group of enthusiasts that paid for ERT are going to move in and enjoy that time instead. Of course, we know that doesn't happen- if ERT is scheduled for enthusiasts, it's either before or after the hours set aside for regular paying guests.
Would it be fair if paying guests were kicked out of a park early so enthusiasts would get to enjoy the coasters with minimal lines? If you don't think that's fair, how can virtual queing be fair?
SFoGswim said:
Has anyone ever been through a security checkpoint at the airport? It might just be at ATL, but there is a line for everyone to wait in, and a line that First-Class and Medallion members can wait in. Sometimes the regular line is 30 minutes, and the First-Class line is 30 seconds. How is this any different?
Actually, that is very different. It doesn't really matter who goes through the security point first. On an airplane, everybody has to wait the same amount of time because first class doesn't take off before coach! the only difference is some people are waiting in a chair and others are waiting in line.
A more accurate comparison would be if somebody offered to pay more for your seat and you were forced to take a later flight.
Yes, I realize that something like that almost happens except that when airlines overbook, they take volunteers to stay behind and the volunteers are usually offered something for their trouble.
I can't imagine Six Flags telling me that they overbooked a roller coaster and giving me a coupon for a free meal since I had to wait.
Lord Gonchar said:
No. You're making assumptions about what you expect from your admission. The park makes no implications or guarantees about what your ticket gets you. In fact, it gets you into the park. You're paying park admission. Park admission at any park guarantees nothing except entry to the park.
Actually, I'm not. According to Great Adventure's website, park policy dictates the following:
Behavior: All guests are expected to behave in an appropriate family-friendly manner. Unruly, disruptive or offensive behavior, including line-jumping/holding places in line is strictly prohibited and will not be tolerated. Violations of this policy may be cause for ejection from the park without refund.
Line-jumping and holding places in line is, according to the site, STRICTLY PROHIBITED and WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. That means I have every right to hand over my money to the park, get in line and assume that my place in line is MY place in line. The fact that the park is willing to violate its own policy just adds insult to injury.
I'm not making an assumption, I'm going by what parks have traditionally offered in the past.
Yes. You're assuming SF works a certain way because other parks do and traditionally have. They're not saying anything untruthful. Park admission admits you to the park. The other options are clearly defined. 1+1=2 :)
According to Great Adventure's website, park policy dictates the following:Behavior: All guests are expected to behave in an appropriate family-friendly manner. Unruly, disruptive or offensive behavior, including line-jumping/holding places in line is strictly prohibited and will not be tolerated. Violations of this policy may be cause for ejection from the park without refund.
I guess you have to define line-jumping to fully understand that. Luckily a little further down the same page your info is on, they do:
Line Jumping: Line jumping is strictly prohibited. Guests are not permitted to save places in line or exit the line and return for any reason. Violators may be ejected from the park without refund.
The key statement:
"Guests are not permitted to save places in line or exit the line and return for any reason." (my bold and emphasis)
The rules are clearly defined.
-Park admission gets you into the park.
-Q-bot is available. VIP is available. (per this section)
-Guests cannot play queue manager on their own.
Welcome to Six Flags, try to enjoy your day. :)
Define line-jumping? How about someone cutting ahead of people that waited in line? It's actually pretty simple. You're putting spin on the definition by highlighting the word "guest". If you're going to read that much into it, you might as well expect park policy to define VIP tickets and virtual queing as line-jumping with permission from the park, because that's what it is. If you're going to get technical about the way things are worded, you have to get technical about the way everything is worded. Seems to me that the park isn't too keen on the idea of telling the majority of people what virtual queing means to them if they don't pay for it.
And I like that example, millrace. Apply it to standing in the rain for a taxi. Would you be happy if you were next in line and someone paid to jump ahead of you, leaving you out in the rain for a few extra minutes? I doubt you'd be very interested in defining line-jumping as you're drenched and cold by the curb!
Unfortunately, a lot of coaster enthusiasts, including some of the ones around here, have bought into this new way of doing things, unfair as it may be.
We're kinda beating our heads against brick walls here--seems some people on either side just aren't gonna budge.
How can so-called "coaster enthusiasts" support a system that promotes line jumping? Seems some people might just be too selfish and just be concerned about the time that THEY are having, no matter how aversely it affects the other paying guests.
And Gonch, park admission at POP parks pretty much guarantees you more than just "park admission". The point of a POP is that it includes your rides and shows all in one price--hence "pay one price". Unfortunately nowadays, the POP doesn't keep you on level footing with everyone else.
coastin' since 1985
I guess some enthusiasts are okay with line-jumping the same way that some enthusiasts are pushing to see Conneaut close because it's always in the news with financial troubles. I can see why enthusiasts lose interest in the hobby now more than ever. Used to be that park guests pushed for good customer service that came with park admission and got excited about small, traditional parks that were finding a way to make it in a changing amusement climate.
I'm not sure I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall- people know I enjoy a good debate and in the past I have admitted that Gonch is good to debate with- all I'm really trying to do is find out why people feel this kind of stuff is okay to put up with. To me, it seems line a no-brainer. Guests paying to cut other paying guests in line? I would think that would cause a riot at some parks, but apparantly people are okay with that sort of thing and don't think twice about it.
*** Edited 3/19/2007 6:21:46 PM UTC by Rob Ascough***
It's funny... you got on parks' cases by claiming that advertising "free parking" was just marketing spin, but you're clearly putting a lot of spin on the vitual queing idea
No, there's a big difference.
Those parks are telling you you're getting free parking. Six Flags is not telling you your wait time won't be affected by virtual queue users.
One park is twisting the truth, the other is just shutting up. Active vs passive deception, I guess. ;)
But seriously, I find using 'free parking' as a selling point much more deceptive and generally crappy than offering alternative queue options for an increased fee.
It's bad enough that service has taken a dive, but on top of that, prices have gone up. So, now we're looking at getting treated to a less-enjoyable time, all the while being asked to pay more for it.
On top of that, they are offering to let people cut the line, an act that used to be very frowned upon in the amusement industry, if they will hand over even more money.
Why aren't more coaster lovers in an uproar over this?
What if all the fast food chains started offering quicker service if customer's wanted to pay double price for their food? How would that go over? What if restaurants offered faster service for an extra fee? What if the barber shop served someone else sooner than you because they offered to pay more, after you've been sitting there for an hour? How would all this go over?
coastin' since 1985
rablat5 said:
And Gonch, park admission at POP parks pretty much guarantees you more than just "park admission". The point of a POP is that it includes your rides and shows all in one price--hence "pay one price".
Rob Ascough said:
Seems that POP doesn't really mean pay-one-price because all you're doing is paying for admission... at least according to Gonch's logic To me, POP means you're paying for everything associated with the park experience itself, not including food and gifts, of course.
But here's why it doesn't promise that. What if a ride is down? Then in theory you didn't get what you paid for.
And before you say, "this is why parks should post closed rides at the gate" - what if it goes down mid-day after you've paid, but before you've ridden?
What if I don't get to ride everything in the park? Even if I show up at opening and stay until close and I can't find the time to get on everything. The park didn't tell me specifically that I wouldn't be able to ride everything - it's false advertising! ;)
See what I mean? Park admission doesn't guarantee anything inside the park - just that you're getting in.
rablat5 said:
^ I think there is, especially when we know how it's worked for years and how it's being run today.
Ahh, the 'change is scary' thing. go back to the posts theorizing on how change seeps into society and over time becomes 'normal' - the game IS changing. Whether you think it's for the better or for the worse, it's going to happen.
Why aren't more coaster lovers in an uproar over this?
Because it's really not that big of a deal.
What if all the fast food chains started offering quicker service if customer's wanted to pay double price for their food? How would that go over? What if restaurants offered faster service for an extra fee? What if the barber shop served someone else sooner than you because they offered to pay more, after you've been sitting there for an hour?
Then I could save a lot of time in lines everyday in life, not just at the park. ;)
I don't know how you can claim it's unfair. EVERYBODY KNOWS exactly what they're paying for, whether they be VIP's, Qbotters, or the masses. Nobody is being deceived. Nobody gets into the park and says, "Wait a minute, I thought....but instead....."
It just happens that, as a member of the masses, we can't get as much for our dollar as we used to be able to. It sucks (as I am a member of the masses) but it's not like I didn't also make the same choice.
The reason I don't buy q-bot is a) a well planned day at the park will let me do everything I want to (and I'm willing to go through the effort) b) q-bot on the whole seems to decrease overall capacity in many instances c) I'm too cheap.
Hobbes: "What's the point of attaching a number to everything you do?"
Calvin: "If your numbers go up, it means you're having more fun."
But seriously, I find using 'free parking' as a selling point much more deceptive and generally crappy than offering alternative queue options for an increased fee.
I have to disagree with you there Gonch. "Free Parking" is what it is. You don't open up your wallet in two places. They could even advertise free restrooms too and would probably get laughed at. But since a lot of places do make you open your wallet to park, it is something positive you can say and offer. It is easy enough for a guest to compare admission prices between a park with and without "free" parking.
In any case, I think the former is better for business. Both are fair, but parks are all about people paying to have fun. If the perception of not paying two times helps? They are doing their job. If I receive that I am waiting longer because I didn't pay for the special VIP pass, I might not be getting what think is my money's worth of fun. Heck, that's EXACTLY why we rarely go on weekends.
In this day and age, when parking at a major amusement park usually costs something (and in the case of Six Flags Great Adventure, an arm and a leg), actually having free parking is a much more attractive offering to me than virtual queuing options.
In fact, I would applaud a park for having free parking and criticise a park for having virtual queuing. And using free parking as a selling point seems to me to be a wonderful idea.
coastin' since 1985
Rob Ascough said:Line-jumping and holding places in line is, according to the site, STRICTLY PROHIBITED and WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. That means I have every right to hand over my money to the park, get in line and assume that my place in line is MY place in line. The fact that the park is willing to violate its own policy just adds insult to injury.
It should be noted that the regular line and virtual queues are different lines. They just happen to end up in the same place. Park policy says nobody can jump ahead of their respective line.
- Jeff
ApolloAndy said:I don't know how you can claim it's unfair. EVERYBODY KNOWS exactly what they're paying for, whether they be VIP's, Qbotters, or the masses. Nobody is being deceived. Nobody gets into the park and says, "Wait a minute, I thought....but instead....."
I don't think that's a true statement. I would be willing to bet a LARGE portion of the guests at Six Flags don't know about Flash Pass or what it does. Pricing for the Flash Pass isn't even on their website. So, when you're researching a park and ticket prices, you would have no idea about the Flash Pass. I've heard plenty of people in the queue bitching about the Flash Pass and not realizing what it was until it was "too late" to purchase it.
Granted, the enthusiasts all know about it, but we're not a majority of park guest by any means. *** Edited 3/19/2007 9:35:01 PM UTC by halltd***
Second off Six Flags is launchiong a brand new website soon so you can't really complain about flashpass prices on their site.
They do link to them.
Then again, I don't need to rely on some kind of coaster count to validate my existence as a human. And I really don't feel I'm missing out on anything by not going. I also don't need to rent Qbots and buy into the VIP experience in ANY park to prove my own self-importance-- and I would include myself in the "have" category as defined by a previous poster.
Part of the reason I "have" is that I don't piss it away on things I think are frivolous. Not that I don't spend my money, it's just that on my list of things to do with $250, a VIP experience at a park is close to the bottom.
I currently hold a Season Pass to Hersheypark. Now maybe some of you are jumping up and down right now ready to call me a hypocrite for one reason or another. If that's your opinion, I frankly don't care. I saw maybe one or two VIP groups at HP last year in about half a dozen visits. If there are greater numbers, they do a good job of concealing them, as they aren't to the point of being obtrusive on the GP. But if it does get to the point where it noticeably affects my park experience, I will walk away with no regrets. And I would request a pro-rated refund on the pass too.
Here's a question for the restaurant crowd: say you offer the maitre'd your Andrew Jackson-- what happens when the people behind you come in and toss in an extra Lincoln, a Hamilton, or even a second Jackson simply because they "have more" and don't want to wait longer than you? Suddenly you're behind another dozen parties who bid more than you. Now how do you feel? Do you raise your bid, or do you start whining how unfair it is? Or do you just say, "that's business" and go sit your ass in the corner for another hour?
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