Shuttle operation-flywheel vs drop weight

Monday, April 21, 2003 2:33 PM
I did not see anything in a search, so I'll call on the experts [Rideman?] to tackle this.

The first-generation shuttles from Schwarzkopf that utilized drop weights to launch the train, such as those that operated as Tidal Wave at both Great America parks, were operated in such a manner that trains rarely used the rear spike. Rather they were braked on the return through the station.

On later fly-wheel launched models such as Montezooma and SFAW's G-Lightning trains were not braked on the return run and were allowed to negotiate the rear spike.

I've heard lots of speculation but I don't recall ever hearing why there is a difference. Can anyone give a factual explanation as to *why* those models are operated so differently? Was the braking system redesigned in the newer model?

Moosh

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Don't believe everything you think. - bumper sticker seen on 4/19/03


*** This post was edited by Mamoosh 4/22/2003 11:28:07 AM ***

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Monday, April 21, 2003 2:36 PM
I think it's because the drop weight can reset quicker and so they end the ride sooner to increase capacity. Then again, your bumper sticker might be prudent in this case ... ;)

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"It's not a Too-mah!" - Arnold after riding Batman the Ride

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Monday, April 21, 2003 2:45 PM
Is that *really* quicker, tho? Monty's train, unbraked, zooms thru the station, up the spike, and makes it most of the way back into the station before being braked to a stop. Shockwave's trains were braked but did not stop completely in the station on the return trip. Rather the last car or two began to climb the rear spike, then the train would slowly make it's way to the station.

Seems to me the unbraked train would result in a shorter cycle.
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Don't believe everything you think. - bumper sticker seen on 4/19/03

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Monday, April 21, 2003 2:49 PM
Actually, you are absolutely right. Perhaps then getting that weight back up and the shuttle in place takes more time. Then again, The time difference couldn't be more than a second or two.

I think the more you use the brakes, the quicker those parts wear out. So if they could get away with it...but why couldn't they get away with it with the counter weight versions... hmmmmm

Sorry... ;)

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"It's not a Too-mah!" - Arnold after riding Batman the Ride

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Monday, April 21, 2003 2:51 PM
My understanding is that the station is in a different location on the weight drop models and does not have a brake run long enough to complete a full stop without some braking on the return trip. The fly-wheel models have a long enough brake run to fully stop the train.
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Monday, April 21, 2003 3:19 PM
First of all, I didn't know Shockwave went backwards. :)

But when Tidal Wave was at SFGAm it was braked a little on the backwards run but still went up 2/3 of the back spike.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 4:30 PM
SFOG's coaster formerly known at Viper was a counterweight model, and did in fact climb the back spike. As in, the last car was way up on it, and the front car went up a slight amount.

BTW, I saw an E-stop once at the Viperthon in 2001... basically, you're screwed if you fell on the tracks and couldn't get out of the way. The train came into the brakes (backwards--return trip) and stopped with half the train in the back half of the station, and half the train out behind it.

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Is that a Q-bot in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 7:28 AM
LOL Sparky! I meant *tidal*...not sure where my mind was.

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Don't believe everything you think. - bumper sticker seen on 4/19/03

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 8:23 AM
I'll take your word on Viper, but none of my trips or rides on it EVER were all that "backwardsly vertical" (to coin a terrible phrase).

Same with White Lightnin' at PCar.

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Is it the real yellow or the yellow that they had on the coaster cars??

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 8:55 AM
The ONLY one I've ridden that I remember *cruising* up the back spike was Monte....and that SAILED up the back spike...:). Truly, only Batman Chiller could compete among the shuttles I've ridden...(notably, still lacking Freeze and SFAW's in my track record)...

I rode King Kobra, but that was SO long ago (and I was SO scared, hehe), that I couldn't tell you anything about it, except it went upside-down...oh, and I didn't fall out...;)

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"Brian, there's a message in my AlphaBits, it says 'ooooooo'"
"Peter, those are Cheerios"....Family Guy is BACK!!!

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 9:16 AM
Actually 'gator, Kobra, apparently as with the other weight-drop shuttles, did not go up the back spike very far. It was a long time ago for me as well, but I remember distinctly wondering why the back spike was so high when the train hardly utilized any of the vertical track...and that was years before I knew that another type of shuttle even existed.

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-Vater
Have you ridden a Toboggan?

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 9:30 AM
I used to power ride Tidal Wave when it was at SFGAm and I do remember a slight brake would hit on the return trip but the train still flew through the station and utilized the back spike.

Maybe as these weight drop shuttle loopers got older, the brakes have been applied harder but I cant really confirm that.

Bottomline: when Tidal Wave was in its early years, the back spike(especially if you sat toward the rear of the train) got some good back spike momentum.

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Arena football has arrived in the Windy City. Go "Chicago Rush"

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 9:37 AM
Well, it seems the Kobra did go back further than I remember:

http://www.rcdb.com/installationgallery637.htm?Picture=3

Granted, that pic was taken 2 years before I rode it for the first time.

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-Vater
Have you ridden a Toboggan?
*** This post was edited by Vater 4/22/2003 1:38:08 PM ***

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 11:15 PM
Hey Mamoosh,

!!! Only a guess, but I think Schwarzkopf rode the first REAL assembled ride himself in the back of the train and figured out how much more fun it would be for ALL the riders if they got the same sensation of speed and height as the front passengers!!!

Stopping the train on the return trip removes the height and speed for the riders seated at the rear of the train.

Monte is INCREDIBLE into the loop while in the front seat. I'm not to sure Xcellerator match's it. Some day I will find out. For comparison, S:TE does NOT match Monte's launch intensity in my book.

Monte is a great ride in both the front and the back. "I" prefer the front, as I like the G's into to loop, BUT! the height at the back of the train, and being able to see the park, is also a very neat experience.

Question then! Is there a current shuttle loop, where the riders can VEIW the park as well as if they were seated in the back? Do Boomerangs offer the same experience on the lift?

For some reason, I didn't think the Boomerang on the lift was as exciting as Monte on the back spike. "My" oipinion.

Interesting.

Sprig

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Wednesday, April 23, 2003 2:19 AM

Sprig said:

Question then! Is there a current shuttle loop, where the riders can VEIW the park as well as if they were seated in the back? Do Boomerangs offer the same experience on the lift?

SFWoA's Mind Eraser, in the back, gives a great view of the park as it slowly lifts backwards.

I have ridden both Schwarzkopf shuttles and found Monte to be far superior to PGA's former Greezed Lightning. I felt the braking prior to entering the station backwards at PGA sort of took away from the ride while Monte just flew up the back spike.

Does this mean the new Greezed Lightning at SFKK will brake before entering the station as it is a weight drop?

X Factor


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Wednesday, April 23, 2003 5:14 AM
If it's operated as it was as Viper at SFoG, probably. It would be nice if the Eastern US could acquire a flywheel model, but quite honestly I don't feel like I'm missing anything by not being able to ascend the back spike very far. Just the opportunity to ride a classic Schwarzkopf shuttle loop again is good enough for me.

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-Vater
Have you ridden a Toboggan?

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Wednesday, April 23, 2003 6:44 AM
Moosh,

As I understand it about Monte (still love that name!) the reason it's not braked is because the key that is needed to change the ride program was lost a while back. [Source: RideMan or another dependable guru, a short time ago]

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- John

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Wednesday, April 23, 2003 6:56 AM
John - then the key must have neen lost before it opened 25 years ago because it has *always* been operated in the same manner.

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Don't believe everything you think. - bumper sticker seen on 4/19/03

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Wednesday, April 23, 2003 7:11 AM
But remember, it's a Cedar Fair park now. They enjoy braking stuff.

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- John

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Wednesday, April 23, 2003 7:19 AM
You know me, always trying to clarify (or is it muddy?)....either way, did MD say CF enjoys "breaking", or "braking"....;)
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"Brian, there's a message in my AlphaBits, it says 'ooooooo'"
"Peter, those are Cheerios"....Family Guy is BACK!!!
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