Shapiro: Charging for autographs and pictures - more line cutting
Exactly...but it's up to SF to *be* a name brand people like. I doubt it'll be based on price points, although no one likes to feel like an ATM machine, save for you parents, LOL...it WILL be based on performance, and MOST of what I saw at SFMM looked promising. I doubt we'll really KNOW anything until about July 1, when we've seen a month of operations under the stress-test of midsummer crowds. If those people leave saying "I wanna go back to Six Flags", then the prices CAN be in line with the other theme parks....well, they WILL be regardless, but how that plays out on Wall Street is dependent on a positive customer experience.
Honestly, we don't mind paying for a QUALITY product...and if SF is willing to take those parking fees and STAFF their food-service places and CLEAN those bathrooms and RUN the rides - and SMILE the whole time...then they can dig the company out of debt with MY shovel....
But you know sometimes I just want to yell, WE'RE COASTER NERDS, WE'RE COASTER NERDS!!!!!
We do not think the way most other people do. We are privvy to things other people could give two shakes about. There are people who don't know what or where the "independent" parks in their area are, because generally, they could care less. Most people don't know the name Mark Shapiro from Dark Chakiro, and believe or not, there are people who think Disney is boring, and prefer the big, exciting Six Flags coasters, as crazy as that may sound. It's not that they're ignorant, it's that they just don't put that much thought into it, because they have other things they care about. A day at the park is a day at the park.
We care about every detail because they is a *hobby* for us, and for some of us, even a passion. You have to take your "enthusiast" cap off sometimes and think like Daniel Everyman or Leslie Gladtobehere. If that's not possible then guess what? You can't speak for them.
Most people *are* aware enough to realize whether Park *A* shows them a time worthy of their cash, and this is where the new regime must come though on their promises. But it's really no more complicated that that.
DawgByte II said:
...assuming even a ridiculously low 5 buck PKD parking fee...Why are some of you peeps saying parking is sometimes too low? What's wrong with $1.00, $3.00, $5.00 parking? What's wrong with free?
Inflation will eventually make all lots (except the current indie-free ones) around $10.00 avg, but that's not likely to happen until sometime next decade. $15.00 avg should never happen... and is where I'd draw the line.
Nothing is wrong, per se, wirh free. But the reality is, that most parks *do* charge for parking. In the example of PKD, I *know* that they charged me more than 5 dollars last year when I went there. I *think* it was less than ten dollars, but the truth is, I have no clue what the price was. You know why I dont remember, cause it doesnt matter how much it was in relation to the money I was planning on spending.
I'm really flabbergasted on how uptight you are on this parking fee. You of course have the right not to pay it (then you cant park on their lot) but I think you will be in the severe minority. Really, 15 dollars for all day parking is not unreasonable. Airports charge 10, 20, 30+ dollars a day to park. Remember, these SF parks cater primarily to people who live/work/play in urban areas where parking charges are the *rule* rather than the exception. Hell, it costs 8 bucks a day to park where I work!
Oh and BTW, the ~10 buck average I believe *IS* the current norm.
zacharyt.shutterfly.com
PlaceHolder for Castor & Pollux
A day at the park is what you make it!
Richmond Marriott - $11
Columbus Courtyard - $15
Those fees are per day and added to your bill.
Disney would prefer to offer free parking. They charge $10 to discourage Scalpers from swarming the gates, telling visitors such. The point is Disney and other parks recognize that unnecessary charges are bad for business.
Six Flags can charge $15 or $20 for parking (not to discourage scalpers), $60 for admission (as much as Disney's price of admission), they can offer pay-to-cut for $30 (while running coasters at low capacity), they can charge kids $10 for cartoon character autographs, $4 for water, $20 for food, $5 for VIP bathrooms and so on. None of these "improvements" makes Six Flags a more popular destination, nor does it address their hospitality concerns.
The debate on what constitutes an amusement park rip off is not for us to decide, because every guest decides that for themselves. What I don't understand is why Shapiro seems to want guests to go through that debate in their minds every step of their way throughout their park visit. The question should not be can Six Flags squeeze $160 out of the 100 chumps that visit the park in a single day. Does he believe only the rich love roller coasters? The real question should be- Why do so many people think the better deal is to avoid your park?
Disney would prefer to offer free parking. They charge $10 to discourage Scalpers from swarming the gates
I don't know how you came to that conclusion, but if you think about it for even a few minutes, that's just silly. At DL, the Esplanade (and, for that matter, all of the walkways from Harbor through to the West of Disneyland Drive) are private Disney property. If the mouse doesn't want scalpers---or anyone else---there, they can simply remove them.
At WDW, the closest you can get to the MK main gates without crossing onto Disney property is a $15 cab ride. Using parking lot charges to prevent undesireables is even less of an issue there.
Sure urban hotels charge to park, but at the places I've been:
1) the parking is covered
2) it's attached to the hotel where I'm staying and I don't have to walk 3/4 of a mile to get there
3) it's relatively secure, meaning that only people with room "keys" can access the garage
4) I can exit and enter as I please as long as I'm a guest. I don't get charged "re-entry" fees every time I come back into the garage.
RatherGoodBear said:
Travel time, distance, and tolls are comparable for all three parks, except they don't have to pay the 0.75 ransom to get out of Jersey. :)
I'm a Jersey kid, hate Bon Jovi *and* Springsteen, and I always considered the so-called "ransom" a BARGAIN to get out of the state... ;)
15 bucks in some of these markets is something people would use to blow their nose....Philly, NYC, Boston, DC, LA, San Fran....seriously, 15 dollars in those places DEFINES "chump change". Frontier City, for instance, my guess is not as many people will casually hand over their wallets to the parking lot attendant....
Still, regardless, I hope, DESPERATELY, that the new owners will straighten out some of those KNOWN issues from the previous regime - it's not like they haven't been covered before...but the one thing we've yet to see - how will OPERATIONS look come July 1. If people buy Q-bots on busy days and see single-training all over the parks, then SnyderCo will just succeed in digging StoryBurke's "hole to China project" faster than the old management ever could...the other aspects, cleanliness, etc., they seem to have NAILED. *Never* have I seen SFMM that clean - it even SMELLED nice.
RatherGoodBear said:
Alternatives for a suburban Philly family to a Six Flags park? How about Hersheypark (4@ 41.95 full gate price)? Dorney Park (4@ 36.95)?
Prices to enter for 4 (online - gate)
SFGAdv: $160 - $240
Hershey: $168 - $168 (can't seem to find online discount)
Dorney: $136 - $148
Travel time, distance, and tolls are comparable for all three parks...
Distance from Bensalem, PA to each park in miles according to Microsoft Streets and Trips 2006:
SFGAdv: 34.8
Hershey: 104.3
Dorney: 62.3
Cost of gas based on Bensalem prices according to gasbuddy.com ($2.45 a gallon) and assuming a liberal 30mpg (round trip):
SFGAdv: $5.68
Hershey: $17.04
Dorney: $10.18
...except they don't have to pay the 0.75 ransom to get out of Jersey.
No, but you would most likely take the PA turnpike to both the other parks. Tolls (round trip):
SFGAdv: $0.75 (MS&T06 did not alert me to any tolls using the 129 to 196 route, but I know what you mean :) )
Hershey: $12.50
Dorney: $8.00
Parking at neither HP or DP is anywhere near 15 bucks either.
Parking fees:
SFGAdv: $15
Hershey: $8
Dorney: $8
---
Ok so now we have all the costs associated with visiting these parks listed. I'm skipping things like in park food or games or whatnot because these truly are comparable costs - overpriced crappy food and games are overpriced crappy food and games regardless.
Total price range for our Bensalem family of 4 (excluding in-park spending):
SFGAdv: $181.43 to $261.43
Hershey: $205.54 to $205.54
Dorney: $162.18 to $174.18
----
So now what's the new argument? The total price difference between the least expensive option and most expensive option is less than $100. Or less than $25 per person. Use the least expensive options across the board and the difference is just $43 or less than $11 a person.
And all three stay comparable to the other choices I listed in the previous post.
No one's answered the ultimate question yet, if these prices are so high, what exactly do you do with your family of 4 that is comparable but costs signifcantly less? (Hint - another amusement park is still the wrong answer ;) )
Hershey is also the alternative of choice for a lot of people in the Baltimore/Washington area too.
Makes about as much sense financially. ;)
Using the same costs from Baltimore to both parks:
SFA: $160.25 to $220.25
Hershey: $189.96 to $189.96
All you've seem to do is argue my point. Price doesn't matter. People will go where they're going and pay what it takes.
There is a Giant food store near the park if you don't have one close to your home.
Lord Gonchar said:
RatherGoodBear said:
Alternatives for a suburban Philly family to a Six Flags park? How about Hersheypark (4@ 41.95 full gate price)? Dorney Park (4@ 36.95)?All you've seem to do is argue my point. Price doesn't matter. People will go where they're going and pay what it takes.
I agree Gonch.. I mean seriously. RGB and.. dexter.. what kind of experiences have you had at the parks that have made you so pessimistic and seemingly, anti- SF? I just went over some of my old SF trip reports on here, and I can't really see any time that I went that my feelings toward a SF property were overwhelmingly negative.
'Mind sharing?
-Rob Vaccaro
http://www.robvaccaro.blogspot.com
I just think the least of their problems is bumping the price up a bit.
Will the parks suck this year? I hope not, but it won't surprise me if they do - but you know what?
People will still go.
At least they'll be making up some of that debt.
I don't have a problem with SF trying to get out of dept. I just think their philosophy around hospitality is still flawed, a main reason they got into dept in the first place. Is this their best win-back-the-people strategy? Other than charging more in every aspect what are they doing to encourage more people to come to their parks? If we want SF to be successful, isn't it concerning SF seems satisfied to turn a lot of people away? *** Edited 3/22/2006 2:53:54 PM UTC by rc-madness***
Charging for autograph booklets is a good idea, while not original. It's just another extension of brining in new retail opportunities. The line they shouldn't cross is letting people take personal photos of the street characters for free. They do need to attempt the Disney mix of some pay photo ops (pics taken by the park employees) and the free photo ops.
Cherry Hill, NJ as the starting point, since that is a nice affluent area that can afford a day at Six Flags ;)
Mileage to Each Park (quickest route MSS&T rounded down):
Great Adventure: 89 miles = 1.27 hours at 70 mph
Hershey: 207 miles = 2.95 hours
Dorney: 134 Miles = 1.91 hours
Gas and tolls to each park using LG's gas prices.
Great Adventure: $7.28
Hershey: $16.90
Dorney: $10.99
When added the gate and parking prices above either LG's or dexter's Hershey pricing for low Hershey option (rounded up):
Great Adventure: $183-$263
Hersheypark: $131 - $193
Dorney Park: $159 - $171
Low end cost varies $52 or 13 per person.. High end varies 92 or $23 a person. Still a negligible difference. The low end Hershey to the High end Great Adventure is $33 a person or $126 dollars total.
But if the new management does what it says it wants to do. Full train operation shouldn't need to be done during non-busy days. But lines shouldn't break say 1-1.5 hours which I have waited at Hershey for Storm Runner. This seems fair doesn't it?
Now if everyone waits for the whole season to run its course we can debate if the price difference is merited for Great Adventure.
I will say $126 is negligible when you factor in the cost of your time to drive the extra mileage. Cause as the saying goes "time is money."
Who got to decide that 100-125 dollars is "negligble" for everybody? (More like 140-165 when you add in the almost-mandatory Q-bot). Maybe not for some, but it is a big deal for a lot of people.
I'm not saying that a family might have to choose between going to a park and making a mortgage payment, but spending 200 vs. 300 or 300 vs. 400 dollars makes a difference to a lot of people. Even a well off family might decide to go with the less expensive park and take in a baseball game with the difference (they might not mind the cheaper seats).
Or maybe they don't mind spending a lot of money on some other interest or pasttime but they can't see spending 300 dollars on a day at the amusement park. Just because they have money doesn't mean they spend it blindly.
I'll grant that most people who've gone to SF parks in the past will continue to go. Price probably won't be an issue for them. But the reality is that SF is going to have to draw people from beyond their existing market. What about the people who live closer to Harrisburg and Allentown? The difference in a trip to GAdv for them becomes much more expensive than 100 dollars.
How does SF entice them to visit? Tell them they raised prices? charge more for parking this year? Bought new trash cans? Tell them Tweety looks better in costume than a Peanut Butter Cup? You could mention the new Intamin coaster and watch the GP's eyes glaze over. So what does SF have to offer people who haven't traditionally gone to their parks-- or who have traditionally gone to other parks?
What about the people who live closer to Harrisburg and Allentown?
Well, they wouldn't be a family from a Philadelphia suburb, would they? :)
And again, that's exactly my point - people go local. Allentown folks do Dorney, Harrisburg folks do Hershey, Jersey kids do SFGAdv. The use of the Philly suburb example was trying to pick a relatively central location with a large population where the options might be more blurred in terms of which park is the 'local' park.
How does SF entice them to visit? So what does SF have to offer people who haven't traditionally gone to their parks-- or who have traditionally gone to other parks?
The same way they always have. Run pretty commercials with fast editing showing lots of big rollie coasters and kids smiling and teens giggling and eating ice cream.
The major crossroad that we can't seem to cross together is your belief that value/cost is one of the most important considerations for potential park goers while my philosphy is people go where they want to - usually local. Quite simply, we're never going to get past that in the discussion.
I think those commercials, bragging rights with the ride line-up, safari and waterpark are more than enough to get someone from (pick one: Allentown, Harrisburg, King Of Prussia, Emmaus, whatever) to Jackson, NJ rather than elsewhere, while you think the lower price is enough to get them from the same origin to Hershey.
Anything short of finding all the people in the area who visited an amusement park and asking them where they went and we'll never know for sure, will we.
Lord Gonchar said:
I think those commercials, bragging rights with the ride line-up, safari and waterpark are more than enough to get someone from (pick one: Allentown, Harrisburg, King Of Prussia, Emmaus, whatever) to Jackson, NJ rather than elsewhere, while you think the lower price is enough to get them from the same origin to Hershey.Hasn't happened so far, has it? Besides, I think Hershey has plenty to offer on its own without having to rely on a "we cost less than Six Flags" advertising campaign.
Anything short of finding all the people in the area who visited an amusement park and asking them where they went and we'll never know for sure, will we.
You have plenty of time on your hands, don't you? :)
But then you did say that people go local. So how does that play into Shapiro's idea (dream, goal) to make Six Flags parks "destinations" on par with Disney? He's going to have to rely on more than the local people who traditionally go to SF parks to do that.
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