Shapiro: Charging for autographs and pictures - more line cutting

The parks will be empty, so there will be no need for fastpass/VIP etc...

Everyone keeps saying they are trying to draw a new crowd of people, the "upper class" and whatnot... mor emoney for them, and people keep saying smaller lines... but isn't shapiro quoted for bringing up tons of attendance #'s at parks? At La Ronde he wants to go from 1.2 mil to 2 mil... etc.

Flawed logic?

Why should SF stop selling Fastlane? There is obviously a demand for them if they regularly sell out. As a season pass holder I have no problem shelling out $15 to avoid standing in line. Shapiro and company are trying to make as much possible. What's wrong with a company in serious debt trying to maximize their profits?

I understand and agree with a lot you are saying Gonch, but I feel that a SF visit was almost not worth the price BEFORE the price hikes, because of the value for the money you guys are talking about. A lot of cheaper-than-Six-Flags parks make me feel better about dropping cash. Most of those parks have as much as a SF park, but they operate their park much more efficiently, thereby giving me a much less stressful visit.

I feel that a "pay to cut" system creates a conflict of interest for the park. Why should they WANT to run the coasters at full capacity; they already have your admission money, and now they can get more from you just by offering to give you "special treatment for a price".

A visit to SF has become unenjoyable unless you are lucky enough to be able to afford to buy into the Lo-Q Fastlane Q-Bot scam, which contributes to the problem in the first place. Mr. Shapiro's dream of making people pay to cut is already in place, so what the heck is he talking about? Does he have a new, much more profitable scam in the works?

And this paying for an autograph thing would be okay with me if it were done more like Disney. I wouldn't feel cheated if I purchased a reasonably priced autograph book in the gift shop, and then got free autographs from the characters. If Batman was real, do you think he would charge for autographs? Kids will figure out soon enough that there's no santa.

Paying for pics would be okay with me to as long as it is optional and I was givin the choice to take my own pics with my own camera. Maybe that's their ploicy right now. If it is then I am all for it; It's a great idea.

Shapiro does have some good ideas, but I think he's going to realize at the end of this season that he overrating the SF experience. A lot of those people who he doesn't want to visit his parks (people like me)can easily visit a different park, with the same kinds of rides, that value their guests more, and are priced less. I am able to stay away from SF almost every year.

Keep in mind that not once during the conference call did Shapiro mention charging for autographs. He mentioned selling the autograph books -- like Disney and Universal. He mentioned selling the character meals -- like Disney and Universal. He mentioned having more than the 3-4 digital photographers on staff, many stationed around the characters.

Andy, I'm curious as to exactly what these autograph cards that the SFoT employees were hawking were? I just don't think that Six Flags would tell someone "sorry, pay for the autograph" when not only does no other park do this but -- more importantly -- Warner Bros. would be quick to retire its characters from Six Flags' hands if their image was being soiled by upsetting families this way.

Are you sure that they were "Selling" these cards to kids?

Gonch, a question -
Do you think there are enough people who can afford to go to Six Flags and spend $500 on one trip to support all the people they chase away raising prices?

Paris, then Shapiro was mis-quoted in the article that is provided in the first link, because the way that reads he doesn't mention selling books, just autographs. But you are right, I don't think WB would want that sort of image.

Andy - I think we'll be surprised by the sheer number of people who aren't chased away more than anything.

But even if not, that's the beauty part for enthusiast types. If so many people have such a negative reaction to this then SF will fail.

Where to go from there is speculation for a future date.

Face it, most of us are skating along on dirt cheap season passes again this season. This really doesn't affect the majority of us until they decide to raise pass prices as well.

Those two facts alone make me wonder why the hatred for the pricing changes exists on these forums. This year will be old hat for passholders and if it really is as bad as many think, then it will change in 2007.

EDIT - Just wanted to add this semi-unrelated note:

I do agree that customer service HAS to change for this to be effective. If there's one big mis-step in this plan it's that these guys are underestimating how far they have to go and how much work needs to be done to get their employees up to par in terms of service/hosptiality. It could prove to be the chink in the armor that makes this whole thing fall apart.

I agree with Dexter there - SF wasn't worth it to many before. Without some positive changes inside the park, it's even less worth it now.

But other than that, I likes how they're thinking. :)

*** Edited 3/12/2006 1:50:40 AM UTC by Lord Gonchar***

LG, I think we all hate to see prices rise, but we know it has to happen as things cost more to produce, wages have to go up, supplies cost more, etc. and we all know that at some point these cost have to be passed on to the consumer. But I think what is really eating at everyone, or at least some, is what you have said, the precieved value. I feel raising prices like they are doing is putting the cart before the horse. They may have been better off to open and allow guest to see that the parks were better run, kept cleaner, more customer friendly emplyees, etc. At that point a price increase would have probably not drawn much attention. But when the park regulars, like those of us here, know the conditions that have loomed over SF for years, it's hard to see the value of your dollar with the announced cost increases. And yeah, us season pass whores are gonna get by yet another year cheap.

Wasn't Shaprio going around to parks and looking at something like a rock wall that was a $3 upcharge and saying something along the lines of, "we don't need to be nickel and dimeing our guests." Charging for autographs definetly sounds like that to me.

The picture part doesn't sound too bad as long as they still allow you to use personal cameras.

I personally do not agree that regular Q-Bot is a "pay to cut in line" service. If it is working correctly, it is supposed to keep you waiting the same amount of time you would if you were standing in line in the first place. You just spend that time sitting on a bench or walking around. I like it because everytime we wait in a long line, we are subjected to people illegally smoking, obnoxious people, and couples fully making out. Since people have a tendency to get bored and not behave in long lines, they get rather out of hand. If I have Qbot-regular, I can wait my time elsewhere and then show up when the wait time is over. In that sense, I think it is a fine service that I am willing to pay for.

Now I WILL agree that Qbot GOLD, which allows you to cut in line immediately over and over, and a VIP program that would allow people at the front of all lines, is unfair and truly is cutting the line. The same goes for the parks sell simple Fastlane tickets. But for now, I find the regular Qbot a fine way to wait in line. I do wish they would make it cheaper though so more people would be willing to use it. *** Edited 3/12/2006 3:34:21 AM UTC by Mikewhy***

I couldn't see them charging someone to take a picture or autograph with a character. Aren't they there to create a atmosphere more than create money.

If they do as Disney does with Photopass, I could understand that. You could use your own camera as well as get the professional one done as well. Thats not bad. You can even tell the Photopass photographers at Disney that you do not want one of their photos. But they do capture those special interactions you have with the characters.

You don't have to pay $10 for a Disney autograph book, there are cheap versions at Wal-Mart, Walgreens and all over. You will see plenty of types of autograph "books." Some people do come up with pieces of paper.

I don't think its too hard to sign an autograph with 4 fingers, or even just a paw. ;)

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Peabody said:
It will cost upwards of $200 for a family of 4 with park and tax to walk through the gate.

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That's assuming they pay gate admission. Most families seem to buy their tickets online (esp. the out of state guests) or at the grocery store. Then you get the ones coming in with "consignment" tickets. Few really pay "face value", far too few in my opinion!

I do think $10/autograph is too high. Sell the book for $10-15 and let the kids have fun searching out the characters. But, that is just my opinion, and if the parks are maximizing revenue at $10/autograph, so be it.

I'm sad that prices are getting to the point of how much I'd charge to win a Rollercoaster Tycoon scenario.

60 Bucks for 1 day at a bare minimum+ parking. I'm sorry, but that is NOT worth it. AT ALL. I've never bought into the 8 dollar movie:2 hours of entertainment :: 40 dollar admission-10 hours of entertainment ratio because half of that time in the park you're in line and 8 dollars for a movie isn't worth it anyway. When you raise the prices by 20 bucks, that just kills it for me.

Very glad the only Six Flags I'll be going to this year is SFOG.

(It is nice to see that SF parks will be saved due to this, but not so nice that I won't be able to afford them in the first place)

Gonch- People will pay 100 grand for bmws but not chevy cavieliers.

Shapiro would get away with a lot of these higher prices if SF were the only parks.

Customers will just go somewhere else. Its simple as that.

Six Flags is not a Disney. While some of their parks my be fun, they won't successfully charge more than disney at their parks + whatever else they want to charge.

I just don't see it happening. Especially when most of their parks have competitors, that are rather close. Granted, they may pull this off at a few parks, overall they won't be able to pull this off throughout their whole chain.

What we may see is a boost in attendance the first year, and a RAPID decline the second year. People will come out the first year expecting something, finding higher prices, and be turned on to competitor parks.

I also bet KBF sees will get a lot of angry SFMM guests.

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Mikewhy said:
I personally do not agree that regular Q-Bot is a "pay to cut in line" service. If it is working correctly, it is supposed to keep you waiting the same amount of time you would if you were standing in line in the first place. You just spend that time sitting on a bench or walking around...

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But the real problem I have with Q-Bot is that a user won't sit around and wait, they get to stand in line for other rides while pretending to stand in line for the Q-Botted ride. It is not a fair system if someone who can afford an extra $50-$100 gets to ride 20 rides during the same day I get to ride 10, imho. And those Q-bot users DO clog up the lines because they are waiting in more than one line at a time, thus slowing the lines for everyone.

I got Q-Bot last year at SFGAdv (not going back any time soon by the way just in case there is anyone who hasn't heard...lol). There was a sign on the wall that actually encouraged Q-Bot users to wait in more than one line at a time, or watch a show while being Q-botted for a ride.

Cedar Fair has it right. Lower prices and discontinue the virtuial queue systems, and no one will find reason to complain. That makes me feel welcome.

sometimes people who know i am an enthusiast will ask me how often i get to SFGAm (my "homepark")...

i tell them i prefer Cedar Point due to the better rides, better customer service, better everything, and that i "use SFGAm like a cheap two-bit ho...good for a quickie but not much else".

i dont even DO the season pass anymore. i just wait for someone to offer me a pass to their company picnic and go on that.

now with this new pricing, if i want even a quick fix, i'll HAVE to do the season pass...

oh wait...Indiana Beach is the same distance from me and it's MUJCH cheaper....

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there's never a point where something that is not a necessity becomes price gouging

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This is a point worth repeating. I think the reason so many 'buzzers are so upset about the new pricing structure is because, for many of us, we can't really imagine a summer without going to amusement parks.

While parks are not a necessity to any of us, strictly speaking, we all value them highly. Then again, most of us would in the end pay higher prices for our park visits, because that's our hobby. And, as Ambrose Bierce might have defined it, a hobby is something into which one pours unbounded amounts of time and money.

The real question is the degree of elasticity in theme park demand. If most people were barely tolerating the price before, then this strategy isn't going to work. If most visitors weren't really stretching their monthly budgets with a park visit, then this strategy is likely to pay off handsomely.

In either event, I believe the attendance impact of this move won't be felt until the 2007 season, or, at the earliest, the second half of the 2006 season. This is because I don't believe most theme park visitors do much research in advance---witness all the shmucks paying gate prices rather than buying tickets in advance at a lower price. There are a surprising number of them.

The kicker is: none of us knows the answer to this question of elasticity in advance, unless we've undertaken the market research one needs to do to plan theme park pricing. We each have our theories, and it appears to me that it depends on our own economic situation, in large part. Those of us who don't really "budget" for trips to parks assume most other people don't either. Those of us who duck out to the parking lot for sandwiches to save a few bucks are convinced this is the end of Six Flags as we know it.

For the moment, I'm going to assume that the SF leadership that approved the price increases have at least made an attempt to do the market research to know the likely impact of these price changes. If not, then there is no hope for Six Flags. Not because they will lose customers, but because it is being run by total morons. Anyone with half a brain would know that you don't just change prices to see what happens. You survey the heck out of your customers to see what they believe the value has been, and only after do you raise prices.

This brings me to my second theory: buzzers are much more likely to view a day at SF negatively than regular visitors, because we have a broader experience about how a park could be run. While the general sentiment here is that many SF parks are lagging, I wonder what the average guest feels about their park experience?

While we each have anecdotal evidence of this (one way or the other), none of us knows a large enough sample of guests to be representative, and so we're in the dark here too.

It comes down to this: either they're doing this the right way, by basing pricing decisions on customer survey and market research results, or they are not. And, given that this guy is younger than me and is now a CEO of a multi-billion dollar company, I'm going to assume he knows *something* about busienss, and has done the legwork.

Time will tell.

On channel 4 news in Buffalo this morning they had a segment about Shapiro walking through SFDL and all he said on the news was that they were putting in a new water slide and that they were going to make SF a more family park with more concerts, festivals and family entertainement, which I think SFDL has to much of now, so unless we get coasters from other parks in the chain we probobly won't get any new coasters ever again, I was hopeing that they wouls sell SFDL to CF, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.

I was at Disneyworld a few weeks ago and Fastpass worked to perfection. Never waited in line for more than 1/2 hour and the parks were packed. No one was frustrated about the system because everyone had access. And when the lines are short, the system wasn't used.

When I was at Universal, a lot of people paid to cut for the day needlessly because there were no lines that day. No one told them not to get it because the park wanted their money, and could care less if they got ripped off.

Fastpass is designed to generate shorter waits in line. It is more efficient, it’s free and it’s accessible to everyone. Pay to cut has one goal and that is to make money. It shouldn't be encouraged.

For Six Flags to yet again embrace this system suggests that very little has changed. This will end up shooting Six Flags in the foot beccause it is sending the wrong message. People believe the company prioritizes profit over people, and the changes they have made to guest services are just window dressing.

It doesn't cost much to send a different message, that the park is more interested customer's good time than turning a profit. Lake Compouce hasn't spiraled into a financial black hole since offering free soda. And Disney is making a killing off Fastpass. Everyone I talked to the park loved the system. They've grown accustomed to it and will avoid parks that don't offer it.

Done correctly FastPass systems can be a tremendous draw and make parks more enjoyable and profitable. Done incorrectly, pay-to-cut systems will discourage more poeple then they can draw in. Which could be the foolish goal of the system.

So let me see if I understand what I'm reading. If SF was to raise the price of general admission ticket to each park by $20 so everyone could have access to to the "Flash Pass", then you would be in favor of it. Correct? Holiday World and Lake Compounce aren't giving away free soda, the price is built into the price of admission or the price of food and marketed as "free".

I wouldn't count on SF including the cost of Flash Pass in the price of admission until they bail themselves out of debt.

*** Edited 3/13/2006 3:52:47 PM UTC by coasterguts***