Shanghai Disneyland will close in effort to contain coronavirus

What part of echoes did you find confusing? LOL

Those who don't think people are doing enough tend to accuse them of doing nothing. And those who think people are doing too much tend to accuse them of seeking elimination.

But the vast majority of people are somewhere in the middle. So saying clearly the right thing to do was always something isn't helpful or meaningful.

I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) that Jeff is saying that the article is basically a straw man, because nobody is actually arguing the position that it counters. Maybe the discrepancy is because the article is much more about expectation than it is about response?

...And it is my sworn duty to remind you that in most cases, the most disruptive and least effective thing you can do, particularly where government is involved, is “something”. As in “Dooo something!!!” which is usually met with something highly visible and/or disruptive, but not at all effective or productive. Bonus points if it’s also expensive, or cleverly targeted to disproportionately affect a group you don’t particularly like...

—Dave Althoff, Jr.

How many times has New Zealand been mentioned in this thread?

Motion is often mistaken for progress. And related to that, correlation is often mistaken for causation. Particularly when the government is involved.

"Causation" - that gives me BINGO diagonally down. What do I win?

A handrail of your choice to lick

Jeff said:

Be careful how you frame those statistics. A person who never leaves their home and never interacts with another human has a risk that is effectively zero, which is very different from a person who eats in a restaurant. The aggregate risk of all people is meaningless relative to the risk of specific behaviors.

TheMillenniumRider said:
However, I personally do not contribute to said racism, so it just isn't something I routinely think about?

At risk of trying to appear "woke," I think you're reinforcing the "individualistic" problem here. It's not enough to simply not contribute to racism, you have to be actively against it to fix the problem. As MLK said in his Letter From a Birmingham Jail:

I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

Yeah, that's not how it works at all. I'm not contributing to the murder rate, but I'm also not actively railing against it on a daily basis. It's not a you are with us or against us proposition. Heck, most of the time you can't get an answer from the actively "woke" to tell you where, when or how systemic racism is actually happening. You want me to join you in your fight against systemic racism then show me exactly where it is and we'll stand together. Otherwise, you're blowing a lot of smoke. There's nothing worse than leftist liberals who literally see racism in everyone and everything. These are the people who are actively setting this country back a couple of hundred years in race relations. Stop believing the ignorant legacy media the keeps convincing you that you're racist even when you're not.

Not the liberals and the media! O noes!

Listen to what Dr. King said, who was neither a modern day liberal nor "the media." Passively saying "I'm not a racist" while not standing against racism in a vocal way, demanding it be expunged from the society that you participate in, is the reason we've been having this endless discussion for 300 years.

I mean, do you really need a guide to see how system racism occurs when the most basic of statistics enumerate the inequality along racial lines in every possible measurement of society... education, fiscal outcomes, incarceration, access to health care, drug use... that by definition is system racism. You don't need to be "woke" to see that, you just need to open your eyes.

A black coworker of mine said this: "It doesn't do me any good to say Black Lives Matter. I need you (white guy) to say Black Lives Matter...and then back up your words with action."

Fair point.

extremecoasterdad said:

Yeah, that's not how it works at all. I'm not contributing to the murder rate, but I'm also not actively railing against it on a daily basis. It's not a you are with us or against us proposition. Heck, most of the time you can't get an answer from the actively "woke" to tell you where, when or how systemic racism is actually happening. You want me to join you in your fight against systemic racism then show me exactly where it is and we'll stand together. Otherwise, you're blowing a lot of smoke. There's nothing worse than leftist liberals who literally see racism in everyone and everything. These are the people who are actively setting this country back a couple of hundred years in race relations. Stop believing the ignorant legacy media the keeps convincing you that you're racist even when you're not.

So many things to say.

First off, anytime anyone says anything remotely close to "This is what's wrong with this country" it undermines their point. It's a super complex system and any reduction of the complexity into a few sentence explanation is bound to be wrong.

Secondly, if you can't already see where systemic racism is actually happening, it's not hard to figure it out. As Jeff mentioned, basically every facet of society disproportionately harms people of color. Corona virus numbers are just the most recent incarnation of this, but police use of force, educational opportunity, job opportunity, justice system, housing, discrimination walking around in stores or parks etc. etc. "Liberals" see racism in everyone and everything because it's in everyone and everything. Racism here does not mean white hoods and tiki torches. It means subtle suspicion being applied to invisibly deny opportunity. It's really hard to pinpoint on a case-by-case basis, but the cumulative effect is obvious. It has been demonstrated time and time again that people of color are stopped more by police, turned down for jobs, not believed when they report a crime or when they talk to a doctor, passed up for promotions (even coaching jobs in sports predominantly played by people of color) etc. etc. and neighborhoods with people of color are given less funding, less law enforcement, less beautification, less improvements, worse schools, worse post offices...hell, we're even giving them less Covid testing sites and less Covid vaccination sites. Like, I guess that fact I see these things (which I find incredibly hard to miss) makes me "woke" and "the problem with this country" but now that I've pointed them out, are you actually going to do anything? I mean, there are a bunch of steps you can take if you want, but I'm not sure if you actually wanted to be made aware of the problem and fight it. It's super easy at this point for someone to say, "I don't contribute to any of those things" except that (a) we all do, even people of color - see steps below, (b) even if it's not affecting us it's still wrong and we have an obligation to act against it.

Third, I'm not sure if this was what you were actually saying, so maybe I'm wrong, but it sure sounds a lot like you're saying, "Prove to me that your problem is real or I won't help you with it." Like, imagine if we did that for victims of other crimes. "You say you got robbed? Prove to me that you had a car with an intact window and a laptop on the front seat first. Until then, it didn't happen." Why is it so hard to take people's claims about their experience at face value?

For those that care, some basic steps in no particular order can include:
1) Read Dr. King's Letter from Birmingham Jail (do not stop after this step). It isn't to educate or convince, but to demonstrate the need for people to get off the bench and into the game.

2) Listen and acknowledge the struggle of people of color. Don't gas light, don't dismiss, don't say "It's probably not that bad." Take it at face value. When you friend of color says, "I'm not leaving the Best Buy without a bag and a receipt" don't say "You're overreacting." Say, "Sorry friend, that you have to go through this." When your friend of color says they got pulled over driving with a white woman "just to see if everything is okay" acknowledge exactly why they got pulled over and that this happens to people of color all the time. (This does not mean go to your acquaintance of color put it on them to explain their experience to you. This is a very raw topic and only appropriate in the context of an established strong relationship)

3) Reach out to your local organization that supports people of color - could be NAACP, could be a community organizing chapter, could be a church. They almost certainly have some educational opportunities and some opportunities to act.

4) If you're in charge of opportunity, look at the statistics of that opportunity. If it's hiring, admitting, serving, curing, protecting, whatever, do you disproportionately serve people who look a certain way? Unless you're incredibly intentional about it and sometimes even if you are, you will naturally reveal your biases in who you offer the opportunity to. (Even the NFL is working on this, which says something). Take seriously anti-racism training and anti-discrimination policies in those organizations. Only continued and prolonged conversation and awareness will lead to change. Ignoring it will not make it go away.

5) Vote, shop, protest, work, educate, etc. with an eye towards justice. Instead of shopping in the fancy white part of town, patronize a store in a neighborhood of color. Instead of taking a job at the company that's full of white people, take a job at a diverse company. Instead of voting for the candidate who ignores the inequities faced by people of color, vote for someone who at the very least acknowledges the problem, if not is actively trying to work on it. Go get Covid tested and vaccinated in a neighborhood of color to increase the stats there so they get more funding. etc. etc. (Advanced mode: move into a neighborhood of color, join a place of worship that's majority people of color, or send your kids to a school predominantly with students of color)

I'm actually super happy to have this conversation, if it's an actual conversation. If you're already completely convinced that racism doesn't exist and are looking to dismiss any evidence to the contrary, I'll just save my keystrokes, but if you are actually interested a real discussion, I'm happy to be a part of it.

ApolloAndy said:

(Advanced mode: move into a neighborhood of color, join a place of worship that's majority people of color, or send your kids to a school predominantly with students of color)

So, I have a lot of thoughts on all of this, and the lot of you are probably shaking your heads. But I’m going to ask a couple quick questions here.

Andy, I don’t know you, I know you online, you are an educator, you are a religious man, and I’m betting you have a family. I get the sense that you probably are not a millionaire but I feel you have your life in order and are probably decently well off.

Do you live in a predominantly white neighborhood? If so why? Do your kids attend a religious private school? If so why?

If you are living the statement above then I am shocked and impressed and I applaud you because many people find it easy to say we should be doing something, but don’t want to do the same themselves.

We live in East San Jose which is a very multicultural neighborhood. It is almost literally the case that if you go north you find the Chinese people (Milpitas), if you go South you find the Latinx people, and if you go East up the hill, you find the white people who have lived here a million years and are benefiting from rising property values. Our house is pretty median for the area (which is absurdly priced - everyone who owns property is a millionaire, literally, because houses cost more than a million dollars). In our cul-de-sac we have an Italian family, us, a white family and a Vietnamese family. We pastor a mostly white church that's trying to become multicultural (like many churches in America). For the 11 years we were in Texas before moving to CA, my wife pastored a bilingual Spanish-English working class church. I teach in a private school for kids with learning differences. I turned down a job at an elite school that paid twice as much because I knew that they didn't need me. All three of my kids go to a bilingual Spanish-English public charter school that's 90% Latinx. My parents offered to pay full tuition to an elite private school for my kids and we declined. All of these decisions were made with an eye towards justice. I don't say these things to toot my own horn and I know that our financial situation enables us to do a lot of these things (and frankly to make up for a lot of the deficiencies we encounter), but we have tried to some extent to live "Advanced mode."

Now, don't get me wrong, I know we're living in the most expensive area for housing in the country and by virtue of the fact that we own property, we're doing pretty well. We will never have to worry about paying the bills or keeping the lights on or even whether we can afford to travel or pay for college. I'm not about to trade in my job for one that doesn't have health care or send my kids to a school that won't be able to meet their needs. One of the reasons we left the church in TX was because they couldn't/wouldn't pay my wife commensurate with her new decade of experience. So, it's not like we're doing everything conceivable to live into our beliefs. We live a comfortable life and are not about to give it up. I also know "white savior" complex is a real thing. I don't want to sit here and pretend that I'm not still a massive beneficiary of the systems of injustice in our country or that I'm doing anything remotely close to balancing the scales.

But, this is what we're doing to invest ourselves in communities of color. It's not nearly enough and not nearly what we could do, but it's where we are for now. And it's also how I live out the rejection of the notion that everyone else is individualistic and selfish and so I should be as well. God has been very good to us and my belief is that it's my obligation to do the same and it makes my own life happier when I try to do the same.

You sir are one of the few, most would say this is what should be happening, yet wouldn’t participate themselves and for that I applaud you.

People tend to think in race, black v white, etc. I think this is really an issue of rich vs poor, I will elaborate more on that tomorrow.

I have no problem with people of any race, I typically dislike and avoid people who are uneducated, slovenly, and have poor overall behaviors.

I’ve met rich black people who I had great relationships with, and I’ve met poor black people who I couldn’t stand. Typically I find I dislike poor uneducated people, however this isn’t always the case.

Educated doesn’t necessarily mean post secondary either, don’t read it as such.

My belief (which stems from my faith: the Good Samaritan, etc.) is that we have an obligation to befriend and help the poor, not avoid. Again, not that I actually do it nearly enough, but I'm working on it.

Also, it's no secret that there's a very strong correlation between poverty and race, so much so that saying "I don't like to associate with poor people" already has really strong race undertones. I look forward to hearing you unpack some of this, and I am especially interested to hear what you mean by "educated," "slovenly," "poor behavior" and even "dislike."

On an unrelated note, I now feel uncomfortable when I'm in a room of just white people. There aren't many places I've been in the US where that's representative of the community and so it's quite often a room of white people being served by people of color. "Awkward" is maybe the most generous way I can describe those situations.

Andy, do you know how much we love you? Seriously.

Thanks. I'm happy to be a part of Coasterbuzz.
God has given us a lot and done a lot for us, and the more of that I share around, the better I feel about life.

TheMillenniumRider said:

Typically I find I dislike poor uneducated people...

Have you considered a job at Disney?

ApolloAndy said:

2) Listen and acknowledge the struggle of people of color. Don't gas light, don't dismiss, don't say "It's probably not that bad." Take it at face value.

I love your entire post, but ^this^ is resonated with me over the last year. People of color are not looking to be held up on a pedestal or treated better. They're looking to be treated equal. And listening, understanding, and empathizing has helped me be better aware of that.

I get that totally. As a gay person I’m often bemused by complaints about parades and Pride Week. It usually starts with “when’s straight month? Where’s our parade” and most recently we’ve endured the ever-popular phrase “All Lives Matter”.

Despite our fabulousness, all we ever asked for was equality. After a long struggle we finally gained marriage equality and just yesterday anti-discrimination laws were passed. And not to infer it’s all roses from here on out. There are still citizens and legislators who will vote against and try to deny. Not to mention how we may be perceived and treated by the general public.
Yeah, I get it.