SFGAm...the new flagship park?

There was a story posted in the Daily Herald that was talking about Shapiro's visit to SFGAm. In the article, he was saying how he thought SFGAm was one of the best he's seen. Click here for the article. So, is anyone else thinking that SFGAm may become the new flagship park? Discuss... *** Edited 1/27/2006 10:29:34 PM UTC by Gamfan***

Excellent park, indeed. But not really close to the attendance figures and/or geographic importance of SFGAdv and SFMM. Chicago is the "Second City" (and often third) for good reason.

Maybe he's looking to sell it? ;)

Let me post the full quote...

"Great America is the 17th stop for Shapiro on his trip. He said the Gurnee theme park is one of the best he’s seen."

In other words Shapiro has been going around Six Flags parks and is just over half way done, and OF THE PARKS HE'S SEEN, SFGAm is one of the best. And why wouldn't it be? It's very true that SFGAm is one of the highest attended SF parks, so right away that makes his money hungry heart happy, and anyone who'se visited SFGAm would agree that it is one of the best run SF parks. Besides that, I'd guess he's been working around the East Coast to start (he's from NYC and we've already seen a similar report from SFOG), so what other parks could he compare SFGAm to? SFA? SFDL? SFKK? SFStL? SFNO? Of course in that line up SFGAm is going to look that much better.

Besides, SFGAm is ALREADY one of the SF Flagship parks. If it wasn't, do you honestly think they would have added a $25 million water park? Also, the park already had some favor with the new management (as opposed to the other flagship parks) simply because of what it had done in 2005. I mean, all you're hearing about is how the new management hated how all the old management did was add biig, expensive coasters... you don't hear ANYTHING bad from the new management about the similarly high priced water park SFGAm added simply because it fits their new plan so well.

If you're asking will SFGAm ever be the top SF park... the answer is no. While SFGAm is in a good location, SFGAdv and SFMM are in better locations with significantly larger local populations. That doesn't mean SFGAm won't continue to be a top teir park though.

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Olsor said:
Excellent park, indeed. But not really close to the attendance figures and/or geographic importance of SFGAdv and SFMM.

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You act as though SFGAm's attendance is nowhere near the attendance figures for SFMM and SFGAdv. In reality, SFGAm's attendance last year was just 500,000 less than SFGAdv, and that's with fewer operating days.

I certainly agree that both SFMM and SFGAdv have the potential to draw in more people simply due to the fact that they're in larger markets, but they haven't actually been doing that.

I find this article rather humorous, specifically the part about free maps. Wow! I've never seen that before.

-Nate

I took a quick glance at the AB numbers, and I thought I saw GAm as the highest SF. Of course, AB's numbers could be completely bogus, so what do I know.

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specifically the part about free maps.

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Sure. Everyone charges for maps in RCT, right?

I think a lot of people already look at SFMM, SFGadv, SFGAm and SFOT as the "flagship parks". They are the meat and potatos of the chain and they aren't going anywhere.

Brian and Nate - I just looked up the AB 2005 attendance figures:

- SFGAdv: 2.9 million (+6%)
- SFGAm: 2.8 million (+24%)
- SFMM: 2.8 million (+5%)

SFGAm definitely made up a lot of ground this year, but prior to this year, there was about a 20% difference between its and SFGAdv's attendance. Not huge, but not neck-and-neck, either. Until now.

I didn't want to overemphasize attendance, though (especially now that I've looked up the 2005 figures). I would argue that geography is just as important, in terms of potential customers. And the metropolitan area SFGAm serves, while still huge, is still much smaller than the areas SFMM and SFGAdv serve.

But that's all splitting hairs... like was said above, there is no flagship park - there are flagship parks, and SFGAm is definitely among them.

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Olsor said:
Chicago is the "Second City" (and often third) for good reason.

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heh! Jeremy is gonna have your head for that :-)

Anyway, methought it was always common knowlegde that Great America was the best run. I suspect though, that if Magic Mountain and Great Adventure learn a thing or two from their cousin, then attendance will climb into the 3.5 mil range again.

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Olsor said:
Brian and Nate - I just looked up the AB 2005 attendance figures:

- SFGAdv: 2.9 million (+6%)
- SFGAm: 2.8 million (+24%)
- SFMM: 2.8 million (+5%)

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These figures are incorrect as SFGAM hit over 3 million people in 2005. AB did not estimate correctly.

*** Edited 1/28/2006 5:31:55 AM UTC by carlo18***

“While Mr. Six brought us great awareness, we aren’t sure exactly what he represents yet,” Shapiro said. “We will find a way to use him, but not make him the headline as the park did in the past.”

So it appears from that article that Mr. 6 is not dead...just taking a backseat to the Bugs Bunny crew.

While not commenting on any particular parks, or the comments of some on this site, I think the fact that he's burning some parks (that may or may not be profitable) is a GREAT thing.

Get the company as a whole into the black. Please the stockholders. Please the clients. What's wrong with that? You have to break a few eggs to make an omelette, right?

I don't get all the complaints. This is GREAT.

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Brian and Nate - I just looked up the AB 2005 attendance figures...

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Yeah, that was my mistake. I accidentally quoted 2004 figures. And you're correct that in the past few years SFGAm's attendance has been about 20% less than SFGAdv and SFMM, but look back five years ago and SFGAm was consistently attracting three million people. SFGAdv's attendance was higher too (by almost a million), but these three parks are always the three that draw the most people.

It's interesting that there seems to be a sort of glass ceiling as far as seasonal park attendance is concerned, and for some reason that seems to be at about 3.5 million. Generally the top-drawing seasonal park hovers right around that mark, which leads me to believe that at some point it doesn't matter how big your market is. Both SFGAm and SFGAdv are in huge markets, but I don't believe that means that SFGAdv has the potential to attract twice as many people as SFGAm just because the market is twice as big. There seems to be some point where attendance just isn't going to go any higher.

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These figures are incorrect as SFGAM hit over 3 million people in 2005. AB did not estimate correctly.

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I've seen that said, but I don't buy it. Six Flags came right out and said that attendance at SFGAm was up 24% over 2004, and AB's math seems right on.

-Nate
*** Edited 1/28/2006 8:16:34 AM UTC by coasterdude318***

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coasterdude318 said:
It's interesting that there seems to be a sort of glass ceiling as far as seasonal park attendance is concerned, and for some reason that seems to be at about 3.5 million.

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Not to get too far off here, but I agree with this entirely and is why I call CP's price drops a 'knee-jerk' reaction.

I'm glad to hear that Mr. Six isn't going to be murdered. I love the ol' guy.

I still have very mixed feelings about the company, but if they have to sell some of the parks to get where they need to be, I'm for it.

I keep going back and forth...a positive SF comment one day and a negative SF comment the next.

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coasterdude318 said:

I don't buy it. Six Flags came right out and said that attendance at SFGAm was up 24% over 2004, and AB's math seems right on.

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Yeah, Amusement Business' 2005 number remains consistent with their previous estimates, but that does not make their 2004 guess reliable. I don't have 2004 numbers, but their 2003 Six Flags estimated attendance was more than 10% off.

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Antuan said:

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Olsor said:
Chicago is the "Second City" (and often third) for good reason.

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heh! Jeremy is gonna have your head for that :-)

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I'm just going to pretend that comment doesn't even exist. :)

Anyway, on the "seasonal draw celing" and such, I *do* think that GAdv has an advantage over GAm, not so much in a "signature attraction" year, but rather in the "off" years. Let's say that both parks get a significant boost with a shiny new toy. The thing is, the *next* year, with no new toys, they will be significantly more potential GAdv guests who will consider last year's toy "new to them". Therefore, GAdv has the potential to get more of a lasting "newness" of their ride than GAm.

That being said, is there really any point to arguing about this? It is clear to anyone with eyes that these two parks are both dominating their markets and it would be inconceivable that either is losing money. But if you had to pick just one, there is no doubt that GAdv is the "flagship" park. It's the only one that really can be called a resort (3 parks and a soon to be hotel). I doubt you'll ever really see an SF hotel in Gurnee. There would be *way* to much competition from discount brands and full service hotels if for no other reason than the proximity to ORD (O'Hare).

But I think the whole "flagship" debate is just a wet-dream of enthusiasts....
lata, jeremy

I aree with 2Hostyl . Gadv if it isnt that flagship park now it will be.

IF it wasnt do you think they would have moved the headquaters to NY? I really think they have something big planned for the park.

I spent my first 25 years in Chicago... we embrace our Second City-ness. :) Plus, Michael Jordan does wonders for your civic pride.

This is tangentially related to the topic, but I wonder if SFGAm is drawing more of the enthusiast crowd these days. It seems that most people tend to hit the east coast, west coast or Florida parks, but CP and PKI tended to be the only midwest parks that drew people in from all over. I'm kind of surprised SFGAm didn't have better drawing power over the last 15 years. For various periods of time (sometimes brief), they had the fastest wood and steel coasters, tallest dropping wooden coaster, tallest looping coaster, most-looping coaster, tallest stand-up, first inverted... and that's all by 1992.

Clearly, they're getting plenty of attention now, but for a large chunk of time, they were doing exactly what CP is famous for now (bigger, faster, etc.) but seemingly under the radar.

Remember he is visiting in the off-season and quite frankly SFGAm is very well organized and themed from an asthetic view. Also there is a great breathe of rides. The double decker carousel just makes for a great set-up at the entrance of the park. Also, the variety of food at SFGAm impressed me for a SF park.