*** This post was edited by Dutchman on 10/17/2002. ***
Thats funny Duchman, A boiler and firebox for the #3 climax loco at Cass WV cost $800,000 when the engine originally cost about 3,000.
They had a contractor make it who makes the boilers for submarines for the navy.
Now maybe some local machine shop is willing to make a boiler for 65,000 but I doubt it.
Chuck.
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Charles Nungester.
Is it about coasters or friends? I say both!
I love CP to death but some of the policies of the policies are really hurting the charm of the Park.
As overtly safety concious as the current management seems to be I am amazed that they still have live steam.
It seems that with just average maintainance the current Loco's could last forever. They pull light weight trains, on flat track, at slow speed, witout big changes in speed.
Look at the Strasburg railroad, their Russian Decapod has been running for over 100 years.
The current steamers that seem to have problems are the mammoth "Excursion" engines out there now. UP spends a small fortune maintaing 844 and 3985, NS already killed 1218 and 611, BN has found a friend in SP 4449, Frisco 1522 has dumped the ashpan for the last time. All these engines work in completely oppisite way the CP and LE engines run.
They pull heavy trains, at high speeds, over varied terrain, for hours and hours at time. Frequently going from a dead stop to 60 MPH in a very short time.
The speed range for CPLE's engines is 15 MPH at the most.
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PPP Quote of the Year:
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Magnum Force,
There are several mandated laws on the books for the operation of steam locomotives.
Some of them include the replacement of flues and tubes ever five years with at least a thourogh inspection inside and out.
Yearly inspections, Monthly boiler washes and daily blow outs of the mud ring.
It is quite expensive to operate steam trains in any form (Coal, Propane, Oil) However a bill was passed last year that allows for engines to run for 5 years worth of time without the major overhaul compared to the former rule that said 5 years period. This means that a park engine like CP's, PKI's can run for 5 years under steam, Idle time is not included.
One clear thing to me is that while PKI decided to keep steam as they done away with it at other parks, They no longer run both engines at once unless it is to be a extremely crowded like the fourth of July ect.
Not to mention, It normally takes at least 5 crew members per train.
I am not entirely sure where to find the rules and regs reguarding steam operations but I do know that in addition to the many federal rules, There are a number of states that have additional mandates.
Whitewater Valley has had a hugely hard time getting it's old #100 back in service. A engine that I actually got to move the throttle and drive for a short stretch out of Metamora as a kid :)
Chuck, who wonders what it would take to get on a friends of the PKI railroad club.
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Charles Nungester.
Is it about coasters or friends? I say both!
I am well aware of the regulations and give a a couple of hours looking I could tell ya them word for word.
However to me it seems that "park" engines should fall under the same category as Steam Engines from farms. I am rather familiar with them as well. But yet they have no regulations while others do. This makes no sense to me.
Granted Locomotives have higher steam pressure then Threshing Machines, but the danger to the public is just as much. Antique farm power shows are all over the nation. 95 percent of these engines are riveted boilers. In my mind a railroad like CP and LE with no possibility of national interchnage should fall under the same guidelines.
But perhaps not.
Regardless the cost of running Steam is huge and what I was talking about was not the boilers but rather the moving parts which on a steam locomotive are a nightmare.
There is a reason that dieselization was completed in 1960 on US railroads.
-Brent (who is more of a modern railfan and rail history fan then a Steam fan and could really care less about most tourist or park trains but CP's lineup is quite historical which draws me to it. PKI doesn't excite me at all with their Crown locomotives.)
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PPP Quote of the Year:
"I got a B and M shirt"
Let's go ride The Fonicks
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
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"The fish are eating the guest, sir
New High-Pressure boiler regualtions were passed 2 years (?) ago by the FRA (Federal Railroad Administration) This new mandate by the FRA applies to steam locomotives above a certain boiler pressure, which is why a lot of the smaller (below 36") aren't affected. If a train was built strictly for theme park use (mainly the big Crown Locomotives at PKI, SFStL, and the Busch Parks to name a few) they wont apply to FRA reg's, only state and local. Engines like the ones at WDW and CP fall under FRA jurusdiction because they were manufactured as non-them park use, as commercial usage on track outside of private property.
This mandate has affected quite a few engines, and some tourist railroads have had to use diesel instead of steam while their rolling stock is brought "up to code" Some have even shut down completley.
Everyone is right in that steam is extremely expensive. One would hope that the parks that are running steam would continue to do so, and I don't think we have to worry about that. The Crowns (although parts are hard to come by) aren't as maintenance intensive as, lets say the Baldwins in operation at the Magic Kingdom, but they are both expensive none-the-less.
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"We don't sit on your dining room table, so please don't sit on our silver handrails"
I beg to differ about the motive power at CP falling under FRA regulation. The CP&LE is an insular railroad on private property with no public grade crossings. It is classifed the same as a steel works intra plant line. It is under the jurisdiction of the State of Ohio's pressure vessel section. It always has been, whereas the threshers had been exempted. I remember the framed certificate mounted on the front of the cab walls on all of the CP&LE locos when I was there. There is nothing wrong with a riveted boiler if it has been properly taken care of. It is becoming a lost art, though. Not to mention the inspectors who are familiar with them.The younger generation of inspectors have no experience with them therefore they have found it easier to just condem them.It's an old technolgy that is no longer taught, plain and simple.
As far as parts for Crowns, they are still readily available from Bert Williams(who was Crown Metal Products, as was his father Ken before him) as long as you know where he is.
There is also a very big difference in the size of the boiler of a 90-110 ton Climax and that of a 16 ton Porter , Vulcan or Davenport. Not too long ago Ward Kimball(before he passed away this summer) had a quote from a reputable ASME shop of about $75,000 for a new boiler for the EMMA NEVADA. This would be comparable to the George R, which is only slightly smaller than the EMMA. (George R. is big for a 36" gauge 2-4-0)It's true that there are fewer boiler works willing or able to build a locomotive type firetube boiler.This in itself will cause problems.
*** This post was edited by Dutchman on 10/17/2002. ***
People can complain about the cost and the inspection rules all they want, The fact remains that it is dangerous and there are fewer and fewer knowlegable people involved in steam.
About ten years ago a tourist railroad had a incident where the engineer acidently unscrewed a valve till it came out and the steam litteraly killed him.
Just two year ago at the NRHS convention in California, The newly overhauled UP 44 (Formerly 8444) Had a flue burst and scalded the engineers, Several years back at Steamtown, They had a boiler burst. This was before operations were moved to Scranton and came under the National Historic Site.
Chuck, who was glad he got to see UP's Challenger this year in Marshalltown IA. Just 25 miles northeast on Adventureland :)
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Charles Nungester.
Is it about coasters or friends? I say both!
Park engines do fall under state boiler codes but not the new FRA laws unless they travel across public grade crossings. The Milwaukee Zoo for example operates a miniature live steam operation (15 inch gauge I believe) and because they operate across public roads they fall under the FRA rules. Besides the locomotives themselves being kept to FRA spec, they also are required to have working air brakes on every piece of equipment just as we do at the Whitewater Valley RR or at CSX.
Since it was brought up. Here is #100's current status. The boiler arrived a few years ago from Iowa which cost us $65,000 and we currently have about $150,000 to $200,000 in running gear work left to do. We have been running diesels since 1989 on our trains when there was a dispute over who's jurisdiction our steam locomotives fell under, the state or the FRA. At that time the State claimed we were under their boiler laws and outlawed #100's boiler due to it being a lap seam boiler. Later the FRA said we were under their jurisdiction and we could run the lap seam boiler. but then it was too late because the boiler had already went to Iowa as a pattern.
Here is a little history about #100.
#100 2-6-2 Baldwin (Sept. 1919) builders #52261
Weight 48 tons, Wood fuel, converted to coal, BP 180lbs., Drivers 44”, Cylinders 15”x24”, Slide valves, Walschaerts valve gear. Tender capacity. 2200 gallons water, 4-5 tons coal. Tractive effort 18,777lbs.
Built for the Florala Saw Mill Co., Florala, AL as #100, in 1923 to Alger-Sullivan Lumber Co. in Century, FL as #100 for use on its subsidiary common carrier Escambia Railway until 1954. Purchased by three railfans in Alabama who rebuilt and restored the locomotive. In Aug. 1977 it was purchased by the WVRR and moved to Connersville for operation. First run on Sept. 1977 when it was double headed with EBT#6. New boiler built by Capital Boiler in Iowa and arrived in April 1997.Locomotive is out of service currently as it is being rebuilt.
William W. Gray, Curator
Whitewater Valley Railroad
http://www.whitewatervalleyrr.org/
The Whitewater Valley Railroad is an operating railroad museum dedicated to the preservation of a historic branch line railroad, to the restoration of railroad equipment, and to the conduct of educational railroad programs.
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CBCon Quote "We didn't even get wet"......30 seconds later you hear plop, then splash!!!!
Chuck, It was 3985 that had the boiler problems at Sacramento a few years back I believe. Let me sot through my stack of trains magazines. And it is 844 nee 8444 nee 844. The originl number was 844, in he 70's a GP-35 had the same number so they changed the big 4-8-4's number to 8444 and also gave it the Elepant paint scheme at the same time. When the GP-35 as retired 8444 regained her former number as 844.
Incidently 844 is the only locomotive to be on a class 1 roster for so long. It was never retied. Steve Lee and his crew do an excellent job with the UP historic fleet. The DD40-X, The E9's, 3985, and 844.
NS's steam proram was great unfortunately management doesn't care a dime about history and are suffering from it now. I feel sorry for the former Conrail employees. A lot of problems in Elkhart.
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PPP Quote of the Year:
"I got a B and M shirt"
Let's go ride The Fonicks
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Dave's Trips
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PPP Quote of the Year:
"I got a B and M shirt"
Let's go ride The Fonicks
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Waiting for the CP announcement to be made so that about 1000+ posts will be made complaining about it.
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