SFGAm Railroad...I found the live steam!

Tuesday, October 15, 2002 8:50 PM

After months of looking, I finally found a picture of the live steam locomotive that was destined to operate on the SFGAm Scenic Railroad. Its the 1927 Davenport that went to WDW then to CP. it looks as if this photo was taken shortly before the Six Flags takeover. Imagine a live steamer running at SFGAm! This would be it!

Of course after this engine left, the park used its diesel "lookalike" engines that it uses today, and has used since 1976.

Heres the picture.

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/groups/g_2833144/first+ward+kimball.jpg?bcKrjr9AgTTrzT0A

-----------------
"We don't sit on you dining room table, so please don't sit on our silver handrails"

*** This post was edited by spacemountain551 on 10/16/2002. ***

+0
Tuesday, October 15, 2002 8:53 PM

Gotta love the parks that do use real Steam.

Smelling the mix of coal, grease, creasote, and steam is like few things on Earth.

-----------------
PPP Quote of the Year:
"I got a B and M shirt"

Let's go ride The Fonicks

+0
Wednesday, October 16, 2002 5:05 AM

If it's at CP now, which one is it?

-----------------
Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
"There's nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, when it's all in your mind. You gotta let go." - Ghetto, Supreme Beings of Leisure

+0
Wednesday, October 16, 2002 5:17 AM

And, exactly how can you tell that was the engine destined for SFGAm?

Plus, if I am understanding what you're saying, GAm brought this engine to the park, then changed teir minds - without ever using it - then got a different engine before they opened the park. Do you have ANY PROOF of this story?

-----------------
Le roi est mort. Vive le roi.
Thanks Great America!

+0
Wednesday, October 16, 2002 5:35 AM

Well, looking at the picture, this engine "was" at either PGA or SFGAm at one point in time. Just to the right of the engine is the train that Great America uses today.

Interesting find.

-----------------
""To be the man, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!, You got to beat the man""!!!

+0
Wednesday, October 16, 2002 6:09 AM
Long story behind this loco. It was rebuilt by Shop Services(now defunct) for Marriott. It was never operated at any of their parks. It was eventually sold to a private collector. It never turned a wheel under steam for him either.It was eventually sold to Disney, brought up to spec and used as a relief loco at DisneyWorld while the other locomotives were being overhauled. It was not liked there, as it was not big enough or fast enough for their operations. It was going to be sent to Disneyland. It was discovered that it was too big for the CA layout. This is when the three way swap came into being. The original Disneyland passenger train (known as RETLAW 1) was sold to a private collector, CP&LE #1 Maude L was sent to CA and the Florida engine went to CP. It was sitting in back of the engine house under a tarp all last summer. Many of us believe that it wasn't used last season because it's an oil burner. They have no facilities for sevicing an oil burning. Plus handling and oil burner is different than firing coal. Maude L is sitting in pieces in the back of the Disneyland shop waiting to be put back together.With the change in the Disney park management that project may get under way again.
+0
Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:03 AM

I notice that page has reference to Ward Kimball. He owned two engines in his lifetime, The Chloe and the Emma Nevada.

One of them is at the Orange county RR museum in California. Im not sure about the other one but it may still be on the kimballs property.

Ward died a few months ago and was one of Disneys principal annimators. Thus the whole Disney railroad experience was based on Ward Kimballs Backyard Railroad.

Chuck

-----------------
Charles Nungester.
Is it about coasters or friends? I say both!

+0
Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:13 AM

redman; What is now PGA never had any steamers nor planned to have any. Those are Marriotts cars, so that would put this locomotive at Gurnee. That and as soon as the Six Flags takeover of GAm was final, they must have scrapped plans for completion. I believe thats when this picture was taken. That and it looks as if there is snow cover in the foreground of this picture, and the tree (on the other side of the cars) has no leaves. They don't get snow much in California, do they?

I believe that this one is called "Elizabeth" at CP. It was originally operated by N&S Coal, and had road #55. There were significant changes made. It was converted from a 0-4-2T to a 2-4-4 (for those of you who don't understand locomotive lingo, that would be the count and arrangement of wheels)

-----------------
"We don't sit on you dining room table, so please don't sit on our silver handrails"

*** This post was edited by spacemountain551 on 10/16/2002. ***

+0
Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:26 AM
That engine has not run at CP at all and has never been steamed up at the park. The engine that you see behind the engine house by Wildcat is an older engine that ran at the park, Jennie K. The engine that is being discussed did come from Marriots Great America (Gurnee) To Disney World Fl. where it was on display at Epcot for some time and then in the winter of 98-99 the engine was brought to Cedar Point. That engines sits inside the Engine House and has no name. The name that it had before it traveled to Cedar Point was Ward Kimball. From my understanding there is quite a bit of work to be done on that engine to allow it to be run on Cedar Point's line.

-----------------
HI TIM!

+0
Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:56 AM

Spacemountain,

Six Flags did not purchase GAm until May 1984.


Hollywood director Randall Duell designed Six Flags Great America. It was originally built and owned by Marriott Corporation in 1976. In May of 1984, the Park was purchased by Six Flags Corporation and became the seventh park in the Six Flags family of regional theme parks. In 1991, Time Warner Enterprises facilitated the recapitalization of Six Flags Corporation and gained controlling interest in the company. In 1998, Time Warner sold Six Flags Theme Parks to Premier Parks of Oklahoma City. As of June 2000, Premier Parks officially changed its name to Six Flags, Inc.


Credit for the above information to http://www.themeparks.com/sixflags/sfga3.htm

As far as there being "snow" in the foreground of the picture, why is the no snow anywhere else in the photo. I believe that this "white-out" is due to improper exposure - which is why the foreground is the same color as the sky.

Regarding the passenger car being similar to the one at SFGAm, isn't it possible that the same train style could be used at parks other than SFGAm?

-----------------
Le roi est mort. Vive le roi.
Thanks Great America!

+0
Wednesday, October 16, 2002 8:11 AM

True Redman, but the Great America symbol with the star is on the side of each bench.

This engine could very well have been just sitting idle at Great America way back when and we just dont remember it because it was never used.

Who knows.

-----------------
""To be the man, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!, You got to beat the man""!!!

+0
Wednesday, October 16, 2002 8:24 AM

If you look closely just under the end of the boiler, you can see a "55" imprinted on the frame.

"Great America had at one time wanted to augment the diesels with steam. During Marriott times, the Chicago park commissioned a "Chicago Elevated" 2-4-4T steamer from Karl Auhl at Keystone Light Railways in Irwin, Pennsylvania (which was delivered to Great America but never used)"

This quote was found on http://www.trainweb.org/parktrains/history/crown/latelist.html if you want to check it out.

Technically, I found this pic on a "park trains" group on Yahoo. But i can't link the entire page because you have to be a member, although I can link just the photo. There is the caption for that photo:

"1927 Davenport as restored by Keystone for Marriott's Great America in Gurnee, IL. Later sold to Bill Norred, traded to Disneyland, Walt Disney World, now running as "Elizabeth" at Cedar Point "


-----------------
"We don't sit on you dining room table, so please don't sit on our silver handrails"

*** This post was edited by spacemountain551 on 10/16/2002. ***

*** This post was edited by spacemountain551 on 10/16/2002. ***

+0
Wednesday, October 16, 2002 8:57 AM

Given that information I conced that it is possible that that engine could have been intended to be used at SFGAm, but also note that the author of that site states that there is a possibility that one of the accounts of that train being at SFGAm sould have been mistaken in regards to the location of the train?


...could the Mt. Pleasant newspaper have really meant Six Flags over MID- (not Great) America, which was the original name for Six Flags St. Louis? Aha !! If life is not without mystery, it is not life at all !!


-----------------
Le roi est mort. Vive le roi.
Thanks Great America!

*** This post was edited by redman822 on 10/16/2002. ***

+0
Wednesday, October 16, 2002 11:10 AM

I can't offer positive proof. But look at these facts:

1. We know that a Davenport locomotive was at Disney, then went to CP. It was numbered #55. We also know that Number 55 was on the Chicago Elevated, then went to N&S Coal. The number 55 is on the locomotive.

2. We also know this locomotive was HEAVILY modified. Why would an engine on the Chicago Elevated need a cowcatcher? It was originally a 0-4-2T, then (and you can see in the picture) it now has 2 pilot wheels, 4 drivers and if you look in the back 4 trailers, making it a 2-4-4. This information was derived from www.steamlocomotive.com on the Ohio Page.

3.The picture places it at a Great America park. The emblems on the side of the coach seats place it there. There is NO evidence that GAm is California ever had any steam, but there is suffiecient evidence to say that GAm in Gurnee did, or at least was going to. All other Six Flags parks (in 1984) had steam, except Great America.

4. I do realize the implications of the site that I mentioned. But think about this. Why would a park, one with 2 operable steam locomotives (Im speaking of SFStL) need ANOTHER one? Why not use it at the park that didn't have one. And I believe that comment was referring to the caboose.

Yeah, it's possible that this picture was taken after the 1984 takeover, but I didn't take it so I don't know. But all signs point to this engine as the "lost steamer of GAm"

-----------------
"We don't sit on you dining room table, so please don't sit on our silver handrails"

+0
Wednesday, October 16, 2002 11:57 AM

Charles Nungester said:

I notice that page has reference to Ward Kimball. He owned two engines in his lifetime, The Chloe and the Emma Nevada.

One of them is at the Orange county RR museum in California. Im not sure about the other one but it may still be on the kimballs property.

Ward died a few months ago and was one of Disneys principal annimators. Thus the whole Disney railroad experience was based on Ward Kimballs Backyard Railroad.

Chuck

-----------------
Charles Nungester.
Is it about coasters or friends? I say both!


There was a great and interesting article about Ward Kimball's backyard railroad a while back in either Trains or railfan magazine. Had about 100 yards of narrow gauge track with big engines and cars back there.

Very interesting steam preservationist.

BTW Redman the whole scenario of this locomotive fit things perfectly. I might go ask someone on Trainorders about it but I am almost positive that the information is true. That was definitely a former L Tank Engine.

-----------------
PPP Quote of the Year:
"I got a B and M shirt"

Let's go ride The Fonicks

*** This post was edited by MagnumForce on 10/16/2002. ***

+0
Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:29 PM
There is no engine at Cedar Point named the "Elizabeth" That engine has never made a pull around CP's tracks!

-----------------
HI TIM!

+0
Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:44 PM

Mad For Intamin said:
There is no engine at Cedar Point named the "Elizabeth" That engine has never made a pull around CP's tracks!

-----------------
HI TIM!



Not to be a arse but you obviously didn't read.

The engine is there in the backshop area, It requires some heavy overhaul to be used at CP. The engine is currently a oil burnner where CP uses Coal.

When I first started visiting CP in '94 the engineer at the time said that CP was going to convert the engines to LP or Propane, My response to him was HUGE MISTAKE!.

Chuck, who realizes just what a messy painstaking job coal fired steamers are but to me IT's WORTH IT! Nungester

-----------------
Charles Nungester.
Is it about coasters or friends? I say both!

+0
Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:07 PM
Cedar Point is still using coal, and if I remember correctly, the currently-active locomotives are the Jennie K, Myron H, and George R. A recent thread on Guide to the Point indicates that because of some new laws regarding riveted boilers in the State of Ohio, George R. may be retiring.

The Ward K. apparently has a welded boiler, but as has already been noted, is an oil burner. It also has an integrated tender, which means it has an extra-long wheelbase (as did Maud L.) which could cause problems on Cedar Point's railroad. I have heard conflicting stories (all from the same person, a seasonal engineer on the Cedar Point railroad, and all at the same time. Which tells me that no decision has been made yet) that there is talk of putting the Ward K. boiler on the George R., or of modifying the Ward K. to burn coal, or of any number of other options, most of which involve combining the Ward K. and the George R. into some kind of Frankenengine, or of modifying the Ward K. to operate on the CP & LE and retiring George R.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

+0
Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:48 PM
I was just reporting what I had found on the internet. I personally have never seen this engine (we'll just call it #55) at CP. I found information on www.steamlocomotive.com and it says it was operational. The fact is, it MAY BE in operating condition, but not running at its current location.

-----------------
"We don't sit on your dining room table, so please don't sit on our silver handrails"

+0
Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:14 PM

RideMan said:
Cedar Point is still using coal, and if I remember correctly, the currently-active locomotives are the Jennie K, Myron H, and George R. A recent thread on Guide to the Point indicates that because of some new laws regarding riveted boilers in the State of Ohio, George R. may be retiring.

The Ward K. apparently has a welded boiler, but as has already been noted, is an oil burner. It also has an integrated tender, which means it has an extra-long wheelbase (as did Maud L.) which could cause problems on Cedar Point's railroad. I have heard conflicting stories (all from the same person, a seasonal engineer on the Cedar Point railroad, and all at the same time. Which tells me that no decision has been made yet) that there is talk of putting the Ward K. boiler on the George R., or of modifying the Ward K. to burn coal, or of any number of other options, most of which involve combining the Ward K. and the George R. into some kind of Frankenengine, or of modifying the Ward K. to operate on the CP & LE and retiring George R.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Thats Sad. On another thread, me and some other rail buffs were just talking sbout how soon it would be before CP would let another locomotive go cold. The George R. was one of my favorites on the line, with the long-silent Albert being the other.

As for the Disney Loco "Ward Kimball", I would expect them to keep it out of service until they run out of Locomotives, unless it can't run around the line's curves and whatnot.

-----------------
"The fish are eating the guest, sir


+0

You must be logged in to post

POP Forums - ©2018, POP World Media, LLC
Loading...