SF 4th Qt. conference call. My rant.
I have my doubts about #2. IMHO, they should have kept the single day rates the same and pumped up the price of the season pass. But again, I'm no business propellerhead.
janfrederick said:
2) Do you honestly think they'll put any of that extra admission towards paying their front line employees better in order to attract better employees?
This shouldn't be so hard to determine. Surely somebody here knows somebody who's been hired for the 2006 season, or plans on getting hired, so it shouldn't be too hard to see if this has changed yet.
What I'm curious about is that Shapiro has obviously indicated he'd like to go on a hiring spree with tons of new costumed characters, bathroom attendants, etc. With SF struggling to hire in the past, and shipping in foreign labor from all over the globe, I just wonder how Shapiro plans on gettin this new help in the park when the past management couldn't (or wouldn't) get it done.
Obviously, the first idea would be raising wages, but considering budgeting and all of that, they may have something more creative up their sleaves. I know that your average SF employee does not in any way shape or form get the same kind of treatment and benefits that your average CF or Disney employee enjoys. I'm not saying that suddenly SF could compare to Disney on that level but setting some creative goals outside of just raising wages maybe be something SF is looking at.
The bottom line for a lot of SF parks is that even if they raised their base pay a full dollar an hour, your average joe schmo could still get something better at their local fast food joint or grocery store. *** Edited 3/14/2006 3:29:55 PM UTC by matt.***
I don't think folks want to see Six Flags go belly up, but we certainly don't want to see their previous tactics succeed. Other amusement park companies are watching what happens to Six Flags, and I'm a little glad they got the message that their's is not a successful strategy to follow. What I wish for the most is for the new management at Six Flags to take the company in a different direction. But right now, I'm just seeing a lot of the same tactics dressed up in different costumes. And it kinda ticks me off. *** Edited 3/14/2006 4:46:15 PM UTC by rc-madness***
Lord Gonchar said:
He's referring to "Gonch's Theory Of Discrimination Through Pricing."It's a stretch, but it's in its infancy stage. :)
Ah pardons, I'll take a copy if it's along the lines of "we don't need no stinkin' enthusiasts" :)
matt. said:
This vendetta again? I still am not sure who exactly is a member of this, or who here at CB really wants SF to fail. Can we get some quotes please, or is this still based completely on just vague perception or whatever
Just read the Kennywood as a SF park thread - a lot of "oh the horror!" sort of comments when no one knows how it would have been. No one would even give them a chance.
dexter said:
It makes me feel pretty crappy that an amusement park, a business of which I am publicly fanatical about, would not desire my hard earned money, just because I don't wish to spend any more than around $200 on a one day trip for myself.
It's not that they don't desire the impact from the season pass totin', short-stayin', parking lot eatin' enthusiast, they would rather focus on making themselves apealing to people who will give them the most money - is that really a problem? Not ever business is Wal Mart in the sense that not all cater to the cheap or poor folks.
My experience with SF is that they don't want to move lines effeciently, so if you want to ride, you almost have no choice but to submit to paying the equivalent to another admission or Two to be able to cut in front of everyone else.
Do you REALLY think that's part of the grand scheme? Especially when the new management, the *greedy* SOB's that they are, has said that they want to keep those lines moving as fast as possible?
And they have *SAID* that they are changing ride capacity. That doesn't mean that they really are
Just go read some of the Magic Mountain trip reports - I haven't read them all, but from what I have read, things like Riddler's running three trains are more common.
I include "Flash Pass" as part of the SF admission because I feel that it is nessessary to be able to enjoy the park, even though it's causing those without it to wait much longer overall because of the "waiting in Two lines" effect.
See, it's not neccessarry, YOU are telling yourself its neccessary. You are the catalyst of your own problems here, no one is forcing you to purchase a bypass.
Maybe your experience and my experience with Q-Bot/FastLane are very different. In my experience, it does not help overall capacity. It's in SF's best interest to lower capacity to sell more Q-Bots. It's been their policy to make money right now and not worry about later. Q-Bot is another way they choose the fast buck over gaining a loyal customer base who will come back year after year.
If they were so caught up in selling Q-bots, then why limit them to a certain amount per day?
It doesn't HELP capacity at all, it's not intended to. It's intended to give people a chance to wait in line without phyiscally waiting in line, and I'm sorry but the overall effect is hard to judge. I'd go as far as to say picky groups of people who just HAVE to ride together hurt capacity figures as much or even moreso than the Q-bot by letting many empty seats go with each train.
janfrederick said:
Just a quick comment on what Jophish said about raising prices in order to provide a better product.
I'm sorry I don't recall saying that, but I do agree :)
matt. said:
Surely somebody here knows somebody who's been hired for the 2006 season, or plans on getting hired, so it shouldn't be too hard to see if this has changed yet.
Well, they HAVE increased staffing a lot and added some new rewards, but as far as a direct pay increase, I don't know.
I know that your average SF employee does not in any way shape or form get the same kind of treatment and benefits that your average CF or Disney employee enjoys.
Browsing through Cedar Point and Dorney Park's employee benefits pages on their respective websites, they don't get much more than SF employees do, and there are also things that SF employees get that CF employees don't. I'm sure Disney does beat them all though.
*** Edited 3/14/2006 9:25:59 PM UTC by Jophish***
Some things I noticed:
1) Appearance-The park looks better than it has in years. Newly painted buildings, walkways and rides, new flowers and shrubbery at the entrance and near Riddler's Revenge, all give the park a freasher look. The walkways were also clean and the games area looks nice this year.
2) Bathrooms- Holy crap! The bathrooms were clean! And a few of them already have attendants standing outside. I asked one of the attandants how often the bathrooms were being cleaned and she said once an hour. Very nice touch.
3) Employees- A mixed bag here. Moosh's observation was dead on with some of the ride operators. They looked like zombies and weren't paying a bit of attention. And some had a deer in the headlights look if tried to ask them anything. On the other hand, the ride op's at X were incredibly efficient, they really have learned how to run that ride. And I did notice a few smiles and "how ya doings".
4) Characters- This is the biggest and most welcome change the company has made in years. Shapiro gets major kudos from me for this. While not roaming everywhere yet, where they were, they brought smiles from kids and adults alike. And like Moosh said earlier, almost all is forgiven when you can interact with Sylvester, Tweety Bird and Porky Pig. And their performances are great.
5) Capacity- This is (so far) still my MAJOR problem with this park, and it was even worse than I remembered. Running one train on Riddler's Revenge until 1pm is just unacceptable. And having several attractions closed at the same time just make it stand out like a sore thumb. It's this area I really want to see Shaprio put his foot down on, especially if he expects me to shell out $15 bucks a visit for parking.
Overall I have changed my tune, and I will visit a few more times this year. I am curious to see how the park runs once the weather warms and Tatsu opens.
Is it at all possible Shapiro has caused an effect on how SF coasters are running. Because I've already read two reports saying that SFOG's Mindbender is running nearly brakeless as well as Texas Giant.
99% sure this is just coincidence, but damn that would be lovely if we could get already awsome coasters even better.
I understand that Burke/Story wanted full control of every decision made both in and outside of the parks. Perhaps Shapiro has given some of that control back to the individual parks. I have *heard* that may be the case.
Jophish said:It's not that they don't desire the impact from the season pass totin', short-stayin', parking lot eatin' enthusiast, ...
You really didn't describe me at all there. I have no SF season pass and pay for a one day ticket when i go. I stay the whole day, and experience the whole park. If the food is good and reasonably priced, I will eat at the park. I have been known to go to McDonnalds or BK in the middle of the day sometimes. You make me sound kind of trashy, which definately is not the case.
Do you REALLY think that's part of the grand scheme? Especially when the new management, the *greedy* SOB's that they are, has said that they want to keep those lines moving as fast as possible?
Yes I do. I see through their scam very easily. Words are not actions, especially where the media is concerned. Free advertising.
Just go read some of the Magic Mountain trip reports - I haven't read them all, but from what I have read, things like Riddler's running three trains are more common.
...Like DWeaver's post just above?
If they were so caught up in selling Q-bots, then why limit them to a certain amount per day?
I think that they sell more than they should in a day as it stands right now.
I'd go as far as to say picky groups of people who just HAVE to ride together hurt capacity figures as much or even moreso than the Q-bot by letting many empty seats go with each train.
So why in the heck don't they have a single rider line like universal? Because it would improve capacity and not promote Q-Bot, that's why.
You do have some very valid points though.
Chitown said:
I wasn't trying to downplay anyone here and I apologize for using the word "enthusiass". I had just gotten home from tipping a few beers and listened in on the conference call then made this topic.
...and you're a mod? *tsk tsk* ;)
The Flying Turns makes all the right people wet - Gonch
Was it the apologizing thing that a mod shouldn't do, or that a mod is supposed to be an upstanding citizen that shouldn't drink? :)
My favorite MJ tune: "Billie Jean" which I have been listening to alot now. RIP MJ.
Shapiro has fired 5 GM's and also stated that GM bonuses not only will be based on budget, but also guest experience, etc.
What that says to me is if the GM's at these parks don't perform and please the guests which in turn will hurt attendance and numbers along with Cap-ex, these GM's won't get the bonuses and possibly won't be employees of SF in the future.
Even though Shapiro is making changes, it is up to these GM's to make sure at their individual park ,that these changes are successfull.
Basically, when all the SF parks start to operate this season, and you aren't seeing the changes happening like the new management wants, make a complaint to Guest Relations. I guarantee heads will roll starting this year.
If I were a GM of one of these SF parks, I would make sure everything runs the way Shapiro and company want it to or else my job might be on the line.
My favorite MJ tune: "Billie Jean" which I have been listening to alot now. RIP MJ.
Chitown said:
And to the doubters that are still saying things haven't changed at least at the parks that are open (SFMM)?
I don't understand what the question is here.
At any rate, I thought the gist of your first post is that taking a "wait and see" attitude would be a good thing, but a few vaguely positive trip reports from SFMM, SFOT, and SFoG are just not enough to suddenly change everyone's minds.
Maybe some of us will change our minds once all the parks are open for the season.
Maybe some of us will change our minds once we see how all of these changes work at the peak of the summer when the parks are at their busiest.
Maybe some of us will change our minds when the season is competely over and we can really assess what our own personal experiences at the park were.
And maybe some of us won't even be convinced until we see what positive changes actually stick for the 2007 season.
The even tougher part about all of this is that as enthusaists, we're here *discussing* the changes that SF is possibly making. The general public isn't going to have all of this laid about before them like we do, and frankly, your average guest is not going to enter SFKK and take note of how many attendants each bathroom has. The more observant people may notice cleaner bathrooms than what they saw last year. The more observant guests may notice lines moving faster etc etc. But I think in the long haul, if positive changes are made, the GP's mind is going to be as difficult or even more difficult to change then the average enthusiasts. *** Edited 3/15/2006 3:19:44 AM UTC by matt.***
Scroll along the first page and see where I brought up the doubters. You bring up the "change our minds" mindset which is all fine and good.
My stance on this is clear. SF is in the crapper when it comes to debt and customer satisfaction(at least at most of the parks). Why have this doubtfull reaction to what they want to do? The Burke regime didn't accomplish getting this company out of the red. What would you prefer happen? Would you like another team to take on this task?
I don't think Shapiro is a god. I don't think what they have proposed is definitely the answer. My take on this is, just let them have a go at it. It can't hurt at this point.
My favorite MJ tune: "Billie Jean" which I have been listening to alot now. RIP MJ.
The Flying Turns makes all the right people wet - Gonch
Anybody going to Six Flags this year expecting a miracle turnaround is kidding themselves.
Just like it's taking Cedar Fair awhile to turn around Geauga Lake, your going to have to give this new Six Flags Management just as much time, or more, to turn around the whole company.
Ive already seen Trip Reports reporting postive things and that's good...but I have seen reports saying "things haven't changed". And I think those people are trying to judge way to quickly.
Right now I have a very open mind about the new management and am excited to see what they will be able to do in thier first year. But I know it won't be until 2007 or even 2008 until we see thier plans pan out.
SFMM alone is going to take a few years (at least) to fix, so combine that with the other parks and you have quite an uphill battle. I saw some improvement, and as long as I see a little here and a little there, I'll remain hopeful.
The trip reports this summer are going to be hilarious to read. In one corner you'll have the "I told you so" group, complete with their park inspector badges on, nitpicking the parks to death. And in the other you'll have the fanatics, with nothing but praise for their homeparks.
The truth as always will lie somewhere in the middle, with the more trusted posters giving the more accurate picture.
dexter said:
You really didn't describe me at all there. I have no SF season pass and pay for a one day ticket when i go. I stay the whole day, and experience the whole park. If the food is good and reasonably priced, I will eat at the park. I have been known to go to McDonnalds or BK in the middle of the day sometimes. You make me sound kind of trashy, which definately is not the case.
I am sorry, I did not mean to insult you. If I insulted you, then I insulted myself because what you just said described me other than the staying the whole day bit, which I rarely do at my home park.
So why in the heck don't they have a single rider line like universal? Because it would improve capacity and not promote Q-Bot, that's why.
See, I don't know - the only SF coaster with a single rider line that I can think of is Pandemonium, I too think they should have more. But Universal has both a line bypass system and single riders, so is that really the reason?
Oh, and I'll be damned if that wasn't bad timing on my part about MM ;)
matt. said:
Is it at all possible Shapiro has caused an effect on how SF coasters are running. Because I've already read two reports saying that SFOG's Mindbender is running nearly brakeless....
I can't speak for Giant, but Mind Bender won't remain that way, AFAIK. So, if you can, get your superb rides in this weekend, train 2 is supposed to be around by the end of the month.
matt. said:
But I think in the long haul, if positive changes are made, the GP's mind is going to be as difficult or even more difficult to change then the average enthusiasts.
Absolutely, and that is a concern of mine - a huge majority of the residents of metro Atlanta have probably gone to SFOG in the past 5-10 years and had a bad experience (or at least not a GREAT one), and public perception is hard to change. I do think Shapiro's marketing prowess will hell expedite this process.
"I don't think Shapiro is a god. I don't think what they have proposed is definitely the answer. My take on this is, just let them have a go at it. It can't hurt at this point." and "Right now I have a very open mind about the new management and am excited to see what they will be able to do in thier first year."
I agree with both.
I DO like how the new guys are more flexible and open to change - ie the parades at SFOG have sucked, and I think if public feedback dictates the need for improvements, it will be improved. If not, then that will be a bad sign of things to come. That's one thing I've got my eye on.
*** Edited 3/15/2006 7:38:33 AM UTC by Jophish***
Jophish said:
Just go read some of the Magic Mountain trip reports - I haven't read them all, but from what I have read, things like Riddler's running three trains are more common.
REALLY? Well I must have been at SFMM on a bad day on Sunday. When we went to ride Riddler, B:TR, Goliath, Psyclone, Colossus, Goldrusher and Scream -- all of them were only one train operation.
DejaVu, Revolution, Ninja, Flashback and Superman were closed.
But the only coasters that were running multiple trains were Viper and X (when it finally opened sometime after 11:00). But an additional word of praise to the X crew who were not only hitting interval, but actually beating it by getting the new train out BEFORE the previous train entered the unloading station.
But, I still say I had a good day at the park. It was clean, the ride-ops were fast and thorough, the shop employees were ok, the food stand employees were polite and cheerful and I saw costumed characters about four times (with multiple characters at the same location at the same time) before I left at 3pm. I saw Bugs, Tweety, Daffy, Taz and Petunia during my visit and they all were quite animated (pardon the pun) in their interaction with park guests.
--George H
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