Retheming nickelodeon areas at Cedar Fair parks

Jazma said:
out of all the places I've been, I love Ohio the best.

I'm pretty sure that's the first time that's ever been said. ;)

I can understand the comparison to Disney when it comes to Knott'ssince they are both in the same market area. That's not the case forKI, so making that same comparison doesn't make any sense simplybecause CF owns both.

I just don't understand why you are intrigued by the higherinterest in the parks on this half of the country, given the majority ofthe members are from this area. There's nothing intriguing aboutthat.

Ok, I'll trust you. It just seems so weird the way it's being approached- maybe we'll be treated to big splashy announcements with the necessary details sometime in the future.

I'm going to join the side that says Snoopy is fabulous, the kids will love it, the parks will make boatloads of money, and the conversions will be as cute and clever as can be. I'm reading with interest, though, the comments about merch, which frankly, I have been short sighted about until now. I'm one that likes to shop at the parks, but usually for my special interest items (pins, or maybe a nice hoodie or jacket) Then I usually look around and say something like "who actually buys this crap?" The fact that licensing agreements tie in importantly with merchandise has for some reason escaped me - I guess I just always considered it to be "gravy".

I suppose it should have come clear when we were at Universal and laughed at the literally hundreds of kids, couples and entire families we saw wearing thing1 and thing2 shirts! I guess if I'd kept quiet I could've heard the cash registers ringing.

Carrie M. said:
I've said before I think a park moves from an in-house character theme to a license to provide a competitive edge.... Paramount decides they can do "better" with an even more recognized name so they go with Nick. All competing in the same market for the same customers. That makes sense to me.

Cedar Fair takes over Paramount, though, and then discovers just how much of a cost that Nick license is.

That makes a lot of sense to me too. If we look at it this way, it appears that CP may have always viewed Nick as a threat when compared to Snoopy (CP vs. PKI). After CF bought the paramount chain, the character competition could be elimated if they simply got rid of one of the licenses. Because CF looks for the cheap way out a lot of the times, they got rid of the more expensive license, Nick.

POOF! No more competition! Families who live in Columbus, for example, don't have to coose between Nick and Snoopy, because the choice has been eliminated. Thank goodness for CF, who can now make every park the exact same experience. Mediocrity is great. Going backwards is great.

Marketing 101 - Mom's make the descions of where to go and what to do. So you must ask the question will this effect the mother's decision to go to the park or not. The question about per cap of Nick vs per cap of Peanuts would be a little more complex.

Yep.....It's cookie cutter time for cedarfair.

We can argue cost all day, but what it comes down to is the park experiance. You can't put a price on that. If you had a choice to go to any cedarfair snoopy park with your child next summer , or Any six flags park with say...thomas or the super heros? Or even go to Disney or universal. What park do you think a kid is gonna pick?

They will see an impact. But like said before, not a huge impact at the gate. The impact will be much more than just the gate. Merch sales, guest satisfaction, the desire to return to the park, the desire for me to drive 2 hours further down the road so my daughter can see the sponge.

My daughter has been to six flags several times and loves the rides there, and we have taken her to Kings island a bunch of times as well. When we asked her what park she wanted to go to, she said she wanted to go see sponge bob.

So now that bob is not there anymore, what is the point of driving the extra 2 hours(4 round trip), to go to just another theme park that has the same kids rides as a park closer to me does? Looks like the power of the sponge is greater than it looks on paper.

Directly from United Media Licensing (http://www.unitedmedialicensing.com/b2b/html/peanuts.html)

Nearly 60 years later, the comic strip appears in over 2,200 newspapers, in 75 countries and 21 languages around the world. PEANUTS animated specials have become a seasonal tradition and thousands of consumer products are available for purchase in virtually all retail channels. Sub-brands such as Vintage PEANUTS, Snoopy by Everhart and Snoopy Baby’s Best Friend strengthen brand presence in specialty markets around the world. Key audience segments include Women 18-49, Mothers of Children 2-11, and Kids 6-11.

2,200 Newspapers?

Who reads the paper anymore? Older people that don't have kids.

They(peanuts) are seasonal, and so is the easter bunny.

60 years is a long time. Family circus and many other comics have been around for just as long, but what weight do they hold with kids today?

"Key audience segments include Women 18-49, Mothers of Children 2-11, and Kids 6-11."

And how big is that segment? How many/who people did they poll?

Just some food for thought.

crazy horse said:

They(peanuts) are seasonal, and so is the easter bunny.

So is Santa Claus, but that works for Holiday World. :) (all respect to the Holidog, too, of course) :)

Lol...

You know, I was gonna say Santa clause and switched it too the easter bunny because I knew someone would mention holiday world.

While I still don't agree with how they're doing this, for the record my child is 3 years old and loves Snoopy. Yes, he only sees him on Easter, Halloween, Christmas, and Valentines Day, but perhaps that makes it more special because there isn't a constant over-saturation. When he sees those cartoons, it's something special... not just a day that ends in "y."

Count me in the camp, though, that thinks it's a damn shame about the Scooby-Doo dark ride. I really think that's a property that transcends generations and is really a worthwhile one to hold on to. Licenses for individual rides are much cheaper than for overall park blanket licenses, too, so it couldn't have affected them that much.

Jazma said:
I am just surprised that people feel the Nick area at KI was so incredibly themed.

I don't think a single person has said that in this thread. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

What we are all arguing is the emotional connection or attachment to "the characters."

Bingo! And also the relevance to the target audience.

And then in turn the effect that any of those licenses have on the park.

Again, I understand entirely the idea that a better deal with Peanuts nets them more money at less volume. Hell, that's the classic "Gonch's Business Plan' happening first hand. I assume CF has the numbers and it makes perfect sense from a financial standpoint. But CF also strikes me as the type of company that's very black and white and if it can't be measured on a piece of paper then it doesn't matter and I think aside from the financials that the move is a mostly negative one - all in ways a spreadsheet can't describe, figure out or follow. It's the effects of those things are not easily noticeable and have long term negative implications.

otterkpr said:
Directly from United Media Licensing (http://www.unitedmedialicensing.com/b2b/html/peanuts.html)

Nearly 60 years later, the comic strip appears in over 2,200 newspapers, in 75 countries and 21 languages around the world. PEANUTS animated specials have become a seasonal tradition and thousands of consumer products are available for purchase in virtually all retail channels. Sub-brands such as Vintage PEANUTS, Snoopy by Everhart and Snoopy Baby’s Best Friend strengthen brand presence in specialty markets around the world. Key audience segments include Women 18-49, Mothers of Children 2-11, and Kids 6-11.

Yeah, that's cute and all, but it's marketing speak for the most part. Here's Nick's spiel:

Nickelodeon, the world's only multimedia entertainment brand dedicated exclusively to kids, reaches a total of 287.6 million households in 162 territories worldwide via 28 channels, 22 branded program blocks, and two broadband services across Africa, Asia and the Pacific Rim, CIS/Baltic Republics, Europe, Latin America, and the United States. Programming is also aired on third party broadcasters in major territories around the world, increasing Nickelodeon's exposure to 673.6 million households. Nickelodeon's international TV services also include digital channels in the UK, Australia, and Mexico. Digital channels such as Noggin, Nicktoons, GAS and Nick Too can be seen in the U.S. The company's portfolio of international businesses also includes 20 country-specific websites, Nickelodeon Movies, and global licensing and merchandising of consumer products featuring Nickelodeon's program franchises, such as "Rugrats," "Blue's Clues," "Dora the Explorer" and "SpongeBob SquarePants."

Suck on that Snoopy. :)

I disagree that Planet Snoopy areas necessarily have to be cookie cutter, aside from the fact that the general theme will repeat from park to park. Each kid's area involved already is a Nick area, so didn't they carry the same risk?

As Jasma so aptly put it, each park has their own collection of standard flats, decorated with characters and scenery, and those same rides, with some minor changes, will still be there. So, (and this would apply to the midwest Ohioans) if your kids are more the kiddie ride types, Cedar Point might be the family's choice, as that's what they mostly feature. If the tweeners prefer larger, more thrilling rides, then KI might be the choice.

Those Hanna Barbera parks often repeated rides from park to park, those same rides converted to Nick with pleasing results, and the same will happen with Snoopy. I was at first concerned about how the Planet Snoopy concept would translate over a large area then I remembered my visits to Knott's and MOA's Camp Snoopy. I thought both areas were top-notch, well themed, cute, and everybody seemed to be having a blast.

Oddly, Cedar Point just might end up with the short end of the Snoopy stick - their rides are geared more toward the tots, and one area, while cute, is completely made up of hand-me-downs. This is CF's chance to improve and expand the concept chain-wide.

Jeff indicates they are prepared for these challenges. Right now I plan to visit CP, KI, KD, and Carowinds next season, so I can't wait to see the Planet Snoopys at each park and it'll be fun to compare.

As many of us have expressed already, the rides most at risk for failure are the Scoobys. MOA Camp Snoopy had a dark ride shoot-em that I remember was pretty decent, but I can't remember off hand what it was- it's been some years now. I might have to go back through my park maps.

I also forgot to mention that you can't forget about the new sesame street additions at busch gardens. We went there twice this year, and both times that area was slammed.

Do you think they would have gotton as big of a response if they were to put in a marmaduke or a strawberry shortcake land? No, but why not?

Because they are not as marketable as sesame street. I promise you that many families that would not have gone to busch gardens with kids before sesame street was there, are going now. And it's because kids love sesame street. Kids influance parents decisions on trip plannnning more than you think.

Same goes with nick and snoopy.

You can plop down a bunch of coasters and overpriced food joints and people will come. But the trick is to keep them comming back for more.

Sure, we will go check it out next year when they throw a buch of snoopy cut outs and comic book strips as backdrops of rides, but will it make us want to drive back and do it again?

Lord Gonchar said:

Yeah, that's cute and all, but it's marketing speak for the most part. Here's Nick's spiel:

Nickelodeon, the world's only multimedia entertainment brand dedicated exclusively to kids, reaches a total of 287.6 million households in 162 territories worldwide via 28 channels, 22 branded program blocks, and two broadband services across Africa, Asia and the Pacific Rim, CIS/Baltic Republics, Europe, Latin America, and the United States. Programming is also aired on third party broadcasters in major territories around the world, increasing Nickelodeon's exposure to 673.6 million households. Nickelodeon's international TV services also include digital channels in the UK, Australia, and Mexico. Digital channels such as Noggin, Nicktoons, GAS and Nick Too can be seen in the U.S. The company's portfolio of international businesses also includes 20 country-specific websites, Nickelodeon Movies, and global licensing and merchandising of consumer products featuring Nickelodeon's program franchises, such as "Rugrats," "Blue's Clues," "Dora the Explorer" and "SpongeBob SquarePants."

Suck on that Snoopy. :)

And how many of those 287.6 million households decide to drive to a Cedar Fair park to buy Nick-crap for their kids? Probably less than one tenth of one percent. If all the kid wants is Nick stuff, why do the parents need to drop $200, not to mention gas and in some cases lodging, when all they have to do is go to their local Wal-mart, K-mart or Target? Why not just plop the kid in front of the TV for 12 hours, and not go anywhere?

I also remembered that I've seen kids walking around Knoebels with Spongebob stuff that they won or purchased, so much for exclusivity.

So Peanuts will be able to add to their resume that they're the exclusive characters in one of the leading theme park chains in North America, and Nick will be able to say they have an exclusive deal with Southern Star down in East New Orleans. Suck on that, Dora!

Oh and as far as Cedar Fair going all cookie cutter (why there was no complaint about that with a bunch of Nick areas in their parks I don't know), next thing you know they'll start putting 300-foot high coasters in their other parks. Horrible, absolutely horrible.

"And how many of those 287.6 million households decide to drive to a Cedar Fair park to buy Nick-crap for their kids?"

They don't just go to the park to buy little johny a dora doll, they go there for the whole experiance. I don't think you can meet sponge bob at K-mart.

And I can gurentee that it's a lot smaller of a percentage that would travel to see snoopy.

"Why not just plop the kid in front of the TV for 12 hours, and not go anywhere?"

Are you serious?

"I also remembered that I've seen kids walking around Knoebels with Spongebob stuff that they won or purchased, so much for exclusivity.

So Peanuts will be able to add to their resume that they're the exclusive characters in one of the leading theme park chains in North America, and Nick will be able to say they have an exclusive deal with Southern Star down in East New Orleans. Suck on that, Dora!"

I have seen snoopy in a claw machine at the local mall. So much for "exclusivity" on snoopy.

"Oh and as far as Cedar Fair going all cookie cutter (why there was no complaint about that with a bunch of Nick areas in their parks I don't know), next thing you know they'll start putting 300-foot high coasters in their other parks. Horrible, absolutely horrible."

It's cookie cutter because it's gonna be all the same bland snoopy themeing that they have in the planet snoopy at cedarpoint...I can guarentee that. What does snoopy have to offer that can be "fresh"?

Nick has several differant shows to feed off of. Snoopy does not.

The coasters are great for me and you...keep em comming. But I also need something that my kid wants to do as well. Like I said, when you have kids, it's a whole differant game.

I guess you'll just have to take your kid to all the other entertainment venues where you can find Nick. I thought that was the argument for why this will impact KI so negatively.

KI losing Nick shouldn't really much matter to you if Nick can be found elsewhere. If it can't, then I guess the kids will adapt to whatever they find at the park.

RatherGoodBear said:
And how many of those 287.6 million households decide to drive to a Cedar Fair park to buy Nick-crap for their kids? Probably less than one tenth of one percent.

If even that many.

That wasn't the point. It was simply putting a comparison of the market penetration compared to the Peanuts numbers that were posted. (in what I took as an attempt to show how relevant Peanuts characters are)

Peanuts are in 2200 newspapers in 75 countries. Nick reaches 287 million households in 162 territories on 28 proprietary channels.

Assuming the face stuck on the front of the kiddie ride matters, I know which basket I'd be putting my eggs into.

Carrie M. said:
If it can't, then I guess the kids will adapt to whatever they find at the park.

I know we're just going around in circles, but you're still assuming the rides are the draw, not the characters. For most I'm sure they are. For some, the characters get the bodies in the gate or the merch out.

Even on page 9, I just can't help but think that if the characters didn't draw or sell, then the parks wouldn't be paying for them.

I am going to take my kid somewhere else now. That's the whole point.

I really like kings island because of the selection of rides they have. BUT, the reason we went there so often was because my daughter loves nick. We would take turns watching her and riding coasters.

"KI losing Nick shouldn't really much matter to you if Nick can be found elsewhere. If it can't, then I guess the kids will adapt to whatever they find at the park."

Not so much me, but it will to my daughter and cedarfairs bottom line. Sure she may "adapt", but will she get as much joy out of it?

Carrie,

Are you sure your name is not Dick kinzel? ;)

Guys, we really are going in circles. My stance is not that the characters don't matter. Just that they don't matter to everyone or even that much. If Nick can't be found at any other venues in the competitive market, then it doesn't make sense to pay for it any longer.

There will be some loss because of this change. I just don't think that loss is going to be even noticeable to the parks. It will iron out in the bigger picture.

A kid who is at the park, but not enjoying it as much as they would have if Nick was there is kind of irrelevant. The shelf life on the relevance of kids areas is limited to say the least. When the kids get old enough to ride the big kids rides, they aren't going to care what character was in the kids' area.

And no, crazy, my name is not Dick Kinzel. It's Mrs. Moosh. ;)