Raven Re-Opens Sat. June 7.

Not to sure if this has been brought up yet, but according to the Holiday World Home Page, Raven will reopen tomorrow.

Go to www.holidayworld.com (info is on home page) You can also read the current inspectors report posted today.

I read the inspectors report... very good news for the park and for the Raven. But this does make me wonder about future events at HW. (Question for Jeff)... When the CB event in September was cancelled... was there any hint of a possibility that the event may be rescheduled?

------------------
>>> aReJay <<<

Naw, I think the event will still take place each and every year. This accident has opened up some eyes to those who unfasten their seatbelts and ride dangerously, I don't think we will ever see a situation like this again, at least not at an enthusiast event.

Granted, I love airtime and ultimate thrills, but I would never, and I repeat NEVER, take off my seatbelt on a coaster. Then again my homepark's (Knoebels) coasters don't even use seatbelts, so who am I kidding.

------------------
If at first don't succeed, find out if the loser gets anything.

Brian, I take the inspector's remarks to mean that either restraint would have been sufficient to hold Ms. Fellner in if she had been in a proper riding position. He seems to believe that the ultimate cause of ejection was an inappropriate riding posture. Now, as a layman, it seems to me that if a lap bar is loose enough to permit standing, it's too loose. However, the inspector states that Ms. Fellner was "placing her body in a position that the ride was not designed to carry human passengers. Once in this un-designed riding position, the forces exerted on the body resulted in Ms. Fellner leaving the passenger carrying area of the car...." He concludes that "the ride structure and ride vehicles have been maintained, operated, and used in accordance with the design parameters and industry accepted standards." That implies that in his judgement, the lap bar was in an appropriate position.

Moral, sit in your seat like everyone else does.

You also have to consider that she weighed only 100 pounds. As tight as the lapbar could have been, she still could have slipped out.

From what I've heard, Knoebels "hides" the seatbelts on Twister which has modern PTC trains like The Raven.
------------------
If you have a problem with clones, the solution is real simple—Stop traveling.

I don't remember seeing any kind of seatbelts on the Twister. I wouldn't be surprised to see those being added.

SFGAd lover,

Just because she weighed 100lbs doesn't mean she could have slipped out with the lap bar and seat belt as tight as they coud have been. If that were true, parks would never run any coasters as none of them would be safe.

------------------
Top Thrill Dragster -- The most intense, unbelievable, and spectacular fifteen seconds on any coaster, anywhere, ever.

Legendary, let me point out something...

Since this happened, I've ridden five wood coasters, three of which are equipped with PTC trains with ratcheting lap bars similar to those on the Raven.

I'm not exactly a small person, but I know from experience (because it happened to me mid-ride on the Raven at the bottom of Drop #5 during a double-ride in 2000) that it is possible for me to fit under a PTC lap bar in the 6th (lowest) position. I also know that when I am sitting in the station, it is not possible for me to lower the lap bar below the 3rd position without *standing up*. It can come down during the ride because during an airtime moment I can get airborne enough for the bar to clear; this is how Racer usually gets me (ouch!).

It follows, then, that a 240-pound somewhat overweight 6'-tall man can still get into a standing position even if the lap bar is all the way down. What, then, does that suggest with regard to a 100-pound, presumably slender woman? Now that we have the preliminary results of the LTS investigation, can we finally agree that the position of the lap bar is not an issue in this incident? The entire cause of the incident can be traced to rider behavior, and my rant on that subject comes later.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Let's not forget the LTS report also states that the ride attendant was not satisfied with where her lapbar was and LOWERED it.

-----------------
----
David Bowers
Mayor, Coasterville

Well, then, here are four questions :
l. If the lab bars and seatbelts are not enough to keep people safely restrained, and what people really need to be doing is using both hands to hold on to various grip rails to guard against vertical and lateral displacement, should we start discouraging those thousands of riders who like to raise their hands over their heads on every drop and turn ?
2. Should we be moving to highback seats and the kind of double strap shoulder harnesses used in race cars ?
3. Should we be moving to a system in which any release of either lap bar or seat belt drops a brake on the train and stops the coaster ?
4. Should we be moving to a system like most lawn mowers now have, in which the grip bar has a release bar, and if you take your hand off the grip the release bar triggers the brake and stops the coaster ?
Before anybody starts throwing rocks, please note I'm not advocating these changes. I'm just asking the questions, which seem to me to flow logically from the discussion of the past week.

When I first heard of the accident I immediately thought it was a major failure of the safety restraints or a major rider error. Now from the reports it is obviously a major rider error. It is sad that someone died, but you can't tell me she didn't bring it upon herself. If someone doesn't wear a seatbelt and gets ejected in a car accident, or someone smokes for 50 years and dies from lung cancer its sad, but don't ask me to me to pity them. It is their stupidity that got them in the situtation. You do the crime, you do the time. Unfortunately stupidity led to someones death, and that stupidity now will affect every coaster rider. Oh, one more thing. Notice how the media didn't pick up on this? Just another clue that the safety was breached by rider stupidity. Otherwise they would be all over this thing like flies on, well, you know what.

Trekker Park, let me say it again:
1. If the lap bars and seat belts are not enough to keep people safely restrained...<snip>
Did you look at the report? The report is on the Holiday World web site. It suggests that without question, either the lap bar or the seat belt alone is more than sufficient to safely restrain riders. It can't be much more clear than that. Elsewhere it has been stated (not by me) that either the seat belt or the lap bar is adequate to secure a properly seated rider even if that rider is not holding on.

This also indicates that your comment (2) is an unnecessary measure; if the rider is going to intentionally release the perfectly adequate seat belt, what do you think that same rider will do with an excessive harness? We do not know the exit vector, therefore we do not know whether a high-back seat would have made any difference; I am guessing it would not because the most likely exit would have been through the side of the train.

Of course your comments (3) and (4) are both options which are not merely impractical on a gravity powered passive vehicle, they are also potentially dangerous.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

R2, while your views are understandable, their still wrong. Anytime someone dies, regardless of the situation, you should feel bad for them.

We all put ourselves in harm way, at one point or another. Jaywalking, unprotected sex, accidently cutting off another driver on the road, driving after drinking/doing drugs, getting in a car with someone who has (regardless of whether your aware of this fact, because if your letting someone drive you, you oughtta know what they've been doing), and I know skiiers/snowboarders who like to go to fast, or where the trails are "off-limits". Etc, Etc, Etc,

There are way too many examples to list. We all do stupid things. If we "got what we deserved" there would be no one alive. Period.

Your comments about the rest of us having to pay for her actions show how selfish you are. A person is dead and all you can think about how this will affect your coaster-riding. Shame on you.

A woman wanted something a little more on the edge. We can all relate to that, even though most of us would never go to that extreme. She paid the ultimate price for her gamble.

I am deeply saddened.

------------------

*** This post was edited by Robocoaster 6/8/2003 11:48:37 AM ***

When someone blatantly disregards the rules I have no pit for them. Do I feel sorry for their family? Yes, I do. I am not the selfish one though. They disregarded all the rules and common sense. There is a line between stupidity and accidents. If you play by the rules and something happens people should feel bad or some emotion like that. Personally I am tired of people doing idiotic things and then people excusing them. She is the one who unbuckled her safety belt, she stood up on the ride. How I am the selfish one when she decided to go for an extra thrill that is outside the lines for any other person? Maybe she should have thought about it first before she did it.

Why are you selfish?

Someone lost their daughter to this accident. Someone lost their fiance to this accident.

Both of those things should have far, far more important meaning to you than any amount of one click rides on Raven or any other coaster. Despite that. . . despite understanding the great loss of those people -- for whatever reason -- you're trying to saddle them with more guilt and grief.

Consider, for a moment, how her parents must be grieving for her, and then think of how you are telling them, not us, that their daughter ruined your fun.

Would you be willing to do that? Would you be willing to go up to Tamar Fellner's loved ones and tell them that she ruined your fun? Would you expect pity from them?

My goodness. Priorities, people.

My two cents. I wouldn't expect anyone to actually listen to me, of course.

------------------
--Maddie--
"yes I am on the online street team"
Wha? Online. . .street. Online. . . street.
*** This post was edited by Chernabog 6/8/2003 1:47:50 PM ***

R2, sorry for the rush to judgement, but your wording in the original post still leads me to believe your far more sorry about how this affects you than how it affected her. I pity her, for her game of RR ended with a loaded round. I'm well aware this was preventable on her end, so it now seems. But most accidents are preventable, hence the term.

I rode many a coaster after the event recently, and truth be told people, you still get the feeling of weightlessness even if you don't physically come out of your seat. I was snug in my seat on ST at MiA, and experienced plenty of neg g forces. Again, it is not neccesary to physically come out of your seat to enjoy zero gravity (or less).

And I doubt she was a stupid person. She made a grave error in this instance, and my point is we all make stupid decisions from time to time, some more extreme than others, but we make them nonetheless.

------------------
I've gotten the Point of life, and can now pass away a happy man!.......

I think we should agree to disagree on this one. I do feel for her family, I think I stated that before. I am placing full blame on her; not her family. I don't feel for her though since she brought it on herself. All I am saying is that too many dumb things are tolerated in the world. The truth hurts, and in this case she was very, very wrong. I do not feel bad for saying that. Robocoaster, maybe I did word things a little strange, I just hate when one idiotic thing changes things for everyone. Maybe we can all learn something from this, and that is to play by the rules. I will climb back into my hole now.