President Obama Is Looking To Extend The School Year

Carrie M. said:
But if that is the metric that's used for the position you want, then you better get on board with it, despite how it makes you feel. :)

I'd like to think it's possible to change the status quo, but I know better.

You either value higher education or you don't.

I think the problem is that as a whole society we don't value it, it's become a commodity. I believe there's a large number of people that get the piece of paper because they need to - not because they're interested in bettering themselves (other than financially or career-wise, of course)

rollergator said:
I thought where Dave was "going" with that is that *C is frequently/normally presented to the first decimal, whereas *F is normally shown with no decimals...

As always, I reserve the right to be wrong... :)

Thats fine.. but precise is not the right word (even if you do quote it). "Rounded Off or Whole #" I could possibly let go better..

Lord Gonchar said:

I'd like to think it's possible to change the status quo, but I know better.

Well, if it means anything to you, I no longer believe in the value of higher education thanks to your insight. ;) :)

I think the problem is that as a whole society we don't value it, it's become a commodity.

Now that I can partially agree with. Though I think I still have a different spin on it than you.

I have no problem with the number of people who have acquired a college degree. The more, the merrier. So long as the standards for obtaining the degree remain at the same level.

I think because they have become so commonplace, though, the overall standard for achievement has decreased over time. That makes me very uncomfortable.

It would seem because a college education is pretty much a requirement for many things today, and not everyone is cut out for college, the bar has started to lower a bit. In other words, I think the standard has adjusted to meet the demand. It shouldn't be that way.

The way I see it, the bar should continue to increase. If everyone and their puppy has an undergraduate degree these days (and that degree continues to stand for the same thing over time), then people need to pursue a graduate degree if they want to stand out. I'm ok with that.

Okay Carrie, what happens when everybody has a PhD and we have a bunch of doctors running around who don't know squat and they got a PhD and $300k in debt to prove it?

Well, that's just it, though. They wouldn't be "doctors running around who don't know squat." They would be highly educated, marketable potential employees.

And by the very nature of the standard, it's not likely the market would get saturated with people who have that level of degree. But even if it did, the standard would just have to rise further.

Carrie, I'm just saying that there are plenty of college grads around that couldn't tell me the difference between an elbow fitting and elbow pasta.

Why should they be able to unless you know they have been exposed to both?

ridemcoaster, what I was getting at is that the Fahrenheit degree is a more precise unit than the Celsius degree. Period.

Do not confuse precision with accuracy. Also, remember that while any unit of measurement can be expressed to many decimal points of precision, I am referring to the precision of the unit itself. One Celsius degree represents 1.8 Fahrenheit degrees, therefore one Fahrenheit degree will get you closer to the actual temperature than one Celsius degree will. The unit itself represents a certain level of precision, which can be subdivided.

In the same way, millimeters are more precise than centimeters, which are more precise than inches, which are more precise than decimeters, which are more precise than yards, which are more precise than meters, which are more precise than kilometers, which are more precise than miles. None of which, of course, prevents me from expressing a millimeter as 0.00000062 miles.

Of course, this all reminds me of my bathroom scale, which is supposedly accurate to 0.05 pounds, but is only precise to 0.2 pounds. So how would I ever know? :)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

We interrupt this circular argument to bring you this message from the Pedantic Professors of America.

Precision of a unit of measure is meaningless, precisely due to the ability to add significant digits. You can speak meaningfully of the precision of a measurement device though. Thus, the unit "pound" can be made infinitely precise, simply by adding tenths, or hundredths, or thousandths of a pound, and so on. However, Dave's scale cannot be made arbitrarily precise.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled circular argument.

Carrie M. said:
Now that I can partially agree with. Though I think I still have a different spin on it than you.

Slightly, but I'm in the same neighborhood. I agree with everything you said.

Hopman said:
Carrie, I'm just saying that there are plenty of college grads around that couldn't tell me the difference between an elbow fitting and elbow pasta.

Is that really a skill? Is there anything in that knowledge that can be applied to other problems?

If you are a plumber.. Elbow fitting knowledge would be beneficial. And I would certainly call that a skill as I definitely lack that ability to fit around my house.

Elbow pasta and proper usage in dishes is culinary. I definitely call that a skill. I can burn water, so I wouldn't be effective in 4 star restaurants like some of these Chefs.

You certainly wouldnt want to mix the 2 up :) Plastic isnt tasty..

Granted Hopman was being facetious, but both of those could apply to a trade/skill.

Guess its how you look at it..

ridemcoaster said:
You certainly wouldnt want to mix the 2 up :) Plastic isnt tasty..

Granted Hopman was being facetious, but both of those could apply to a trade/skill.

Guess its how you look at it..

Actually, I was thinking of the copper fittings. Those tend to have a nasty metalic taste to them. :)

Let's use another example: a chef who can't tell the diffrence between a head of lettuce and headcheese won't cut the mustard and isn't worth his salt!

RideMan said:

Do not confuse precision with accuracy.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Technically you are confusing the terms. Going by your discussion above.

In the scientific world. The definiton of precision is the degree to which a repeated measurement under unchanged conditions produce the same results. (reproducible value consistently). This is based on a single unit of measurement. "Can I get 100 degrees C every time?" Yes. Under a controlled enviornment, and depending on what is being measured.

Accuracy now is the closeness of measurements of a quantity to its true (accurate) value. ie. Taking a unit down to its decimal in some cases. So really your entire post, scientifically has nothing to do with precision, but more so accuracy between the English and metric units.

Hopman said:
Okay Carrie, what happens when everybody has a PhD and we have a bunch of doctors running around who don't know squat and they got a PhD and $300k in debt to prove it?

Do you honestly think it's that simple? The thing that seems to get lost over and over is that it's not a matter of simply signing up, getting a degree and paying for your student loans. There's a lot of work to do in between all of that.

Lord Gonchar said:
Interesting, but I think thosethings (problem solving, ciritcal thinking, etc) are assumedrequirements (who's looking for an employee without those skills? :) ) and is the reason for the interview process.

The problem is, you can't assume that anyone meets those requirements, and interviews only work as well as the interviewer's ability to find stuff out and get the right references. Some people are great at interviews (like me) but otherwise are worthless (not like me).

Jeff said:
Do you honestly think it's that simple? The thing that seems to get lost over and over is that it's not a matter of simply signing up, getting a degree and paying for your student loans. There's a lot of work to do in between all of that.

But I have to go back to the countless ways one can get a degree (and we've touched on this). Getting that coveted piece of paper can come in many ways and not all of them involve working hard and doing all you can and hoping to retain information, gain life experience and better yourself as a human being.

I fully believe that there a segment (probably not even close to a majority, but still shockingly large for the purposes of the discussion here) that are only going and doing just what they have to - and nothing more - because that piece of paper is so necessary in today's workplace. Whether they be kids out of high school, mid-lifers at community college or people going back for their four year degree after originally stopping at two...or whatever the case may be.

My cynical self just doesn't give people the credit you do...especially with a college degree being so necessary. Now you have to get one (we've all agreed on that several times over). That makes the motivation quite different than when getting one was a conscious effort to better yourself. And I think that goes back to where Carrie was treading with her comments about where the bar get moved to.

I suspect there's more and more people going through the motions and getting a college degree because they have to, not because they want to.

We have definitely dumbed down college. And a big reason why as noted is that more and more kids are there because they think they need to be or their parents made them go rather than actually wanted to be there. And that was true 20 years ago when I was in college. Though from what I have seen, its a lot more common now.

Lord Gonchar said:

I suspect there's more and more people going through the motions and getting a college degree because they have to, not because they want to.

Agreed. And we know it's a truism of life that, generally speaking, one only gets from something that which they are willing to put into it. So it stands to reason that while it (college education) continues to be the metric used for potential job candidacy, it may not be enough any longer to measure one's actual skills.

And that circles us back around to the topic at hand. Just as we need some reform in public education, we also need reform in post-secondary education.

Where I draw the line, though, is the premise that the entire concept of higher ed is a sham. It's broken, yes, like so many other things in our society. But at it's intentional core, it's still quite valuable.

Lord Gonchar said:
But I have to go back to the countless ways one can get a degree (and we've touched on this). Getting that coveted piece of paper can come in many ways and not all of them involve working hard and doing all you can and hoping to retain information, gain life experience and better yourself as a human being.

Exceptions noted (seriously though, there are always exceptions) but I was responding to Hopman's ridiculous notion that everyone can be a PhD.

I have never understood the point of anyone in this thread (at least that I can recall) that higher education has no place or value. Just that it should be part of the mix of available options to folks coming out of high school. Right now to me, its the default option more often that it should be. And like the NYT's article indicated a few pages back, we don't necessarily need folks with more education but rather the right education. And the more folks we get with marketable skills (be it technical, professional, vocational, general problem solving/creative, etc.) the better off we are. College can provide any and all of those things but not necessarily if you are going because you think you need to go. And there are other avenues to providing those skills as well.

And I think the issue will get worse in the near term as the number of high school grads drops in the next several years. From what I have seen, the last of the baby boomers kids are now in college so we will have decreasing numbers of high school graduates in the coming years. That will mean fewer people applying for college. I read an article earlier this week about what colleges in Northeast Ohio are doing to prepare for that. One temptation I suspect will be to admit folks who you might not otherwise admit to keep maintain enrollment numbers.