President Obama Is Looking To Extend The School Year

I thought we were moving away from black and white absolutes.

Seriously? That's where you want to go? No one is suggesting an absolute. As far as this study goes, it follows the generally accepted scientific method. If there's a statistical fact that those with more education are more easily employed, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that there's a correlation. A supporting fact may be, for example, that many jobs simply require a degree.

^ And that if the job you have (that didn't require a degree) goes away suddenly, you are better prepared for that unforeseen circumstance with degree in hand vs. degree not in hand.

Unless, of course, it comes from here.

Interesting that their base point is a high school diploma. Those who completed their HS education were more likely to find new employment than those who didn't. I wouldn't think we'd even need a study to determine that.

First, because the percentage of those dropping out is comparatively small-- what is the rate 4-5%? Though I understand in some places it's increasing (stupid people). Second, I would think that most employers would take the attitude that if a person didn't have the ambition to complete what is a basic requirement in the scheme of things, that person would have little to offer the business doing the hiring.

My post from early this morning had little to do with any direction I would like to take with respect to this thread. More just the reality that the client I was working with in California retired for the evening so I didn't want to stay up longer with a longer response. Though it does seem to me there is a lot of room between causation/correlation and coincidence. But nevermind.

I don't know how the study was conducted or what methods were used. The two articles I have seen are pretty much devoid of any details in that regard. I found a 2 page executive summary which provides some details but not a lot. Without knowing the methods used, assumptions made, etc., its difficult to access the study.

And I still think it would be helpful to look the impact that the type of education had on the re-employment rates. Maybe the study did that and found no differences but that would surprise me. And if that was the case, I would expect that they would indicate as much. And it would seem to me that you would see jumps in the 2 to 3% increase per year for earning a degree because as has been noted, many employers require degrees for various jobs. So it seems at 2 and 4 years of post-secondary education, you would see a significant increase in re-employability because large numbers of folks have earned 2/4 year degrees in that time period. And I wouldn't expect someone who takes 5 years to get a 4 year degree to have a 2-3% higher re-employment rate than someone who takes 4 years to earn the same degree. Maybe all of that is discussed/addressed in the study but I don't know having not seen it.

Since it gets drilled into my head almost every day..."correlation does not necessarily imply causation - many factors can come into play that would change the outcome of the (data) analysis." For instance, one of the major studies involving cigaerttes found a correlation between smoking and some diseases that had previously been considered unrelated. Once they controlled for the confounding variable of drinking (smokers drink at MUCH higher rates than nonsmokers) - then the correlation disappeared.

The value of my house, for instance, went up over time. Does that mean that time caused the value to go up? Not necessarily, because time is strongly correlated with the amount of work done on the house and landscaping...

I was chatting with my dad today, and oddly enough this subject came up. He hates that he didn't go to college, and freely admits that it took decades of "real world" experience to make up for it. He also suggested, based on his work with various underlings in various jobs (wait for it... I think I've heard this before), that even among those who did go to school, the on-campus grads were more adept at adapting and dealing with different change.

Sure, it's just more anecdotal evidence, but it aligns with my experience, and you'd have a hard time ever convincing me that college doesn't create a real professional and social advantage over folks that don't go. You can cite exceptions all day, but that's why they're called exceptions.

While im on the college bandwagon with you Jeff.. I think its safe to say theres exceptions on both sides of the fence. Ive certainly seen frat bothers totally screw themselves up more than people who never went to school. But again.. Exceptions on the other side. The real metric is which yeilds more success than exceptions, and by success I mean what the professional attitude individual comes out with, not what the working world says they did or didnt based on written qualifications which at times are arbetrary. I honestly think you have to look at the industry to say whether the value of college is going to be a motivator or not.

I think more often then not (within the last few years), Ive seen some high level IT people come in with nothing but a HS degree. They spent most of their time behind the glow of the CRT and became computer geniuses, with amazing work ethics. I decided to pool through random companies for their requirements, and I honestly can say im seeing more and more, that there is the trade off of 4 years for 10 years of related experience (which amazingly correlates to your fathers remark).

That said.. I wouldnt take away college for the world, though I think there is a slight shift in degree vs experience requirements than there was 10 years ago. However we can look at another level of the two paths.. The glass ceiling. I do feel that the achievable ceiling for a non college grad is going to be slightly lower or longer to reach than a college person. Not sure I totally agree with it, but its certainly there.

I still think both paths can give you the same end result. I just feel college is way more accelerated and full of twists and turns in that short time than the other. So you come out with the practical applications sooner that can make you successful.

Heres an ironic, yet interesting article. I think it supports my stance that while a 4+ year is still an amazing path to teaching you the skills, time management, as well as a host of other beneficial traits that aid in a successful career, it is still possible to maintain that successful career through 'real life' (hate using that, but its best word) experience as well.

Jobs with minimal Schooling

The goal is to find a job that matches your own particular talents and preferences in addition to supporting your lifestyle.

That is probably the most poignant thing I have read on this topic so far. It really is about finding the right fit.

The only thing I would add to that sentiment is you also have to weigh out your own comfort with risk. If you find the right path that doesn't require you to go to college and things don't work out (injury, job loss, changing interests, increase in lifestyle demands, etc), how able will you be to find another opportunity that fits?

Just a few observations from my trip to Hershey on Sunday.
1. In the line for Storm Runner, I was behind 2 junior high age girls who were sharing one set of headphones on an I-pod. In between the calls the first one was making on her cell phone, the second one lamented that in her school, they weren't allowed to listen to I-pods in class. (Maybe the teacher talking would interfere with it?)

2. In the queue for Fahrenheit, I was behind 2 teenage couples, I'd say they were high school seniors. One was texting to tell some other friends where they were. Between the 4 of them, none knew how to spell "Fahrenheit." One guy said he saw a sign around here somewhere. Finally, the girl texting turned to me and asked if I knew how to spell it. I spelled it slowly, she kind of nodded, looked at me blankly, then closed her phone and said "we'll just catch up with them after."

^"Clearly the old guy can't spell. There's no words with two aitches in it." ;)

In the teenager's defense, RGB, Fahrenheit is a tough word to spell. I don't see that word too often, and I remember how to spell by recalling what it looks like.

Spell checker has made people lazy when it comes to spelling, just like calculators have made people lazy when it comes to math, in my case anyways.

I think its funny to watch people reach for their cell phone calculators any time they want to do basic arithmetic. Its definitely easy to rely too much on technology. And at some point in the not so distant future, I suspect friends will call telling you that they cannot come to your house because their GPS is broken.

You know LK, you really are close to hitting a major point (least one I have had). I have spent a good part of my life on a computer. The crazy thing is when forms come around for me to sign or I have to do some documentation on paper, there are times where I actually pause to write a certain word as if I never saw that word before.

I move over to the computer and start typing it up and amazingly, all the words seems to come back to me. Its a very crazy feeling really.

Other odd thing is I totally think the advent of the keyboard has totally turned my handwriting to that of a 5 year old.

I think I could totally sign off on the theory of technology in some ways is helping us forget the basics from which we came. "Unga Make Fire with 2 sticks".. Nah.. I will use this butane lighter thanks :)

I remember in undergrad linear algebra, our prof used to wipe our calculators before tests, thus forcing us to do it by memory (though we still could use calculators, but you had to know how to get there). Now.. I just know what buttons to push to get where I need. It would take me a good while staring at the book to remember how to do it by "hand".

..oh and im on the College degree side of the fence as opposed to the kids RGB noted... and yet in some cases, I can relate.

I'm with you, Ken. The only thing I would add is that for me it's not so much just using the computer, but rather what I'm using it for. I have found after spending some time on this forum and reading blogs and such that I have to pause more and more and think about my spelling when it used to be quite natural.

They say if you want to be a good writer, then you need to read a lot of good writing. While we do a pretty good job here on CBuzz with our writing skills, the repetitive issue of 'defiantly', 'milenium', and the like can start to mess with people's heads until they begin to seem normal and you have to stop and think about how to spell correctly.

As it pertains to kids today, they are reading more and more of each others otherwise spoken word in tweets, texts, blogs, forums, and facebook updates. Bad spelling can be contagious and the kids today are exposed to more and more of it.

ridemcoaster said:

Other odd thing is I totally think the advent of the keyboard has totally turned my handwriting to that of a 5 year old.

There are some of us out there with learning disablities, like fine motor skills. No, that's not a cop out. I was diagnosed form an early age. My handwriting's been compared to Chinese at best. Thankfully, my teachers were very acomidating in allowing me to do most of my written tests on the computer.

LostKause said:
In the teenager's defense, RGB, Fahrenheit is a tough word to spell. I don't see that word too often, and I remember how to spell by recalling what it looks like.

Spell checker has made people lazy when it comes to spelling, just like calculators have made people lazy when it comes to math, in my case anyways.

But in some other countries many kids that age not only know how to spell Fahrenheit, they'd be able to give you a comparison of temperature scales and give you instant conversions from Fahrenheit to Celsius and vice versa. Before anyone comments, I'm sure there are some kids in this country who could do the same.

"Wow, like they named the temperature after a roller coaster!"

But in some other countries many kids that age not only know how to spell Fahrenheit, they'd be able to give you a comparison of temperature scales and give you instant conversions from Fahrenheit to Celsius and vice versa.

Is that necessary though? Spell check and the internet have made knowing how to do simple things like convert temperatures unimportant. People don't have to know how to do everything.

People don't have to know how to do "everything", but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for a certain minimal level of competence in a wide area of subjects...from there, you at least can identify those with a specific expertise you may need to complete a complex project...