President Obama Is Looking To Extend The School Year

I would have thought they would have taught you in college about the concept "distinction without a difference" but apparently not. :)

Stay in school, kids.

Too busy to keep up with the thread, but here are a few tidbits that came across my wire today.

First, despite the economy, and the fact that we raised tuition, enrollment at UM is at an all-time high. Personally, this surprises me, but apparently we were also able to expand our aid pool. (Fair Warning: we refer to the University Record as "Pravda", so try to read around the propaganda.)

http://www.ur.umich.edu/update/archives/091013/enroll

Second, the US is not coming any closer to mathematical literacy despite a sharp focus on it for the past several years. Yes, I know all the nasty problems with standardized testing. Even so, less than 40% "proficient" sucks no matter how you slice it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/education/15math.html

Math continues to cause a lot of problems for a lot of folks. One of the big problems is that for whatever reason, so many people just go into brain freeze when it comes to math. I have gone to school/worked with some incredibly bright and smart people who understand incredibly complicated and complex subjects but when you start talking math (and not even high level complex math), their brain just seems to shutdown. Its amazing to watch sometimes. And when you put in some numbers with calculations to show how a given proposal will work, for example, they look at you like you just performed some kind of voodoo magic.

Much of what we learn comes from our parents (for better or worse). To the extent the parents shutdown with math, I think the kids will tend to do the same thing. And I think we have the same problem with basic economics/finance concepts because most adults do not understand them (that and we do a horrible job teaching those things in school (if at all) though many of them could be combined with math).

Not sure what the answer is other than to maybe trick people into learning math without them knowing it.

And I think we have the same problem with basic economics/finance concepts because most adults do not understand them

Agreed, 100%. I can't even begin to tell you how many otherwise-educated people I know that don't even understand that money has a time-value, let alone the ability to compare two different payment schedules on a present-value basis. I didn't really learn how to do this properly until I was in college, myself.

In fact, this is my number one pet peeve with K-12 education---graduates are typically still financially illiterate. And, that stems from inadequacies in both mathematics and economics.

Edited to add: however, the lack of parental interest in these topics *cannot* be used as an excuse that allows us to do poorly. We can't afford to do poorly. I suspect a non-trivial portion of the foreclosure wave stems at least in part from widespread financial illiteracy amongst homeowners.

I also don't think we should use the parents as an excuse for the fact that we suck at math. But I think its important to understand the causes/issues involved when trying to implement changes/improve.

And financial illiteracy was definitely a big contributing factor in the financial meltdown. And the politicians/media talking about it since have only made it worse. Watching the politicans spew nonsense on the steps of the Capitol and the commentators doing the same drove me crazy. Did provide some great teaching moments for my kids though who now know more than many Americans about how mortgages work.

Muchof what we learn comes from our parents (for better or worse). To theextent the parents shutdown with math, I think the kids will tend to dothe same thing.

While it may make intuitive sense to think so, intelligence is actually one of the most plastic characteristics humans have. To put it in perspective, height carries a heritability estimate of about .8, meaning about 80% of your height comes from your genes. Intelligence is a low .5. Many studies have shown that changing a child's school environment improves (significantly so) gpa, IQ scores, and "proficiency" test results.

I am living proof that little of what makes up what we call "intelligence" comes from our parents. Thank the maker.

ridemcoaster said:
and of course the most difficult one, know when I had to bunker down and study and not chase college Carrie's ;)

:) I would have been honored to help distract you from your studies, Ken. ;)

OS -- I wasn't looking at it from a genetics standpoint just from an influence standpoint.

Jeff said:

RatherGoodBear said:
Building trades, heavy construction, auto maintenance, culinary, land surveying, medical technology-- these are a few examples of fields where a person could make a decent living without the benefit of a traditional 4-year university education. Granted, they require training and some proficiency to practice. But is a 120 credit college education necessary for an electrician or chef? Would you say these people have no concept of efficiency or time management?

As Brian mentioned earlier, those various trades are shrinking fields. Any electrician or chef, if they desire to run their own business at some point, sure would benefit from a BS in business administration, and I know of one chef at least that has an MBA.

I doubt the trades I mention above are shrinking, unlike manufacturing and certain jobs like call centers. Did we suddenly stop driving cars or using buildings? I agree that a business owner would benefit from a degree in business, but that's something they're going to do with continuing education. They're not going to shut down their business for 4 years to go to college full time. And if they do the reverse, you have a 22-year old with a degree in business administration who doesn't have clue how a circuit works.

There are many fields that require the specialized proficiency that a college education provides. I'm not arguing that. I wouldn't want to drive across a bridge that a high school graduate designed. Nor would I want him/her to try to diagnose a physical ailment. But on the other hand, there are plenty of jobs that don't require a four year degree. Is it an efficient use of our resources to force everyone to go to college even though their chosen career doesn't need a degree? Is it an efficient use of taxpayer money to provide an environment for time management and socialization for 19 year olds? What about the money spent on the one third or so of every freshman class that ends up dropping out?

Jeff, you have your experience and the experience of the non-graduates you've worked with. But can you say with certainty that's the experience of everyone without a degree?

I'm one of those guys who go into brain freeze when it comes to complicated math. I can do the easy, sixth-grade stuff in my head, but the harder equations just stump me.

I've always disliked math. I liken math to being the opposite of creativity. Math has an answer that is set in stone. The answer is the answer, no matter what. Anything that is creative has no definite answer. If I want to paint a tree blue, It's not wrong. If I want to sing out of tune at the end of a sad, slow song, it's my artistic license to do so...

However, if I want to say that 1 + 1 = 11, than it is wrong...well, I think it's right in my own creative way, but it is still wrong.

Understanding that the U.S. has poor overall math skills, keep in mind that, overall, we have become brilliant when it comes to more artistic subjects... at least from my experience.

Interesting, because I've always felt that being good at math goes hand in hand with being good at music. Music at it's core is nothing more than math.

Singing out of tune at the end of a sad song is the musical equivalent of saying 1+1=11 ;) :)

Creativity?
1 + 1 = 11 in
Roman numerals

RatherGoodBear said:

I doubt the trades I mention above are shrinking, unlike manufacturing and certain jobs like call centers. Did we suddenly stop driving cars or using buildings?

No, but we're finally moving into a more sane era, where people don't/can't purchase/lease a new car every 2-3 years, and those cars are always becoming more reliable, with more advanced and less serviceable components.

What's more, mechanics are little more than tools at this point. They plug a device into your OBD-II, and do what the PC monitor says. As vehicles move away from internal combustion and toward electric power, there will be even fewer components to worry about, and when those parts do fail, they won't be tinkering with them - they'll be swapping them out as modules.

So yeah, vehicle maintenance, as a trade, is declining at an always-increasing rate.

1+1 is 11, but only in unary notation. ;)

Here's another op-ed from the Times, this time on the historical unwillingness of the Democrats to take on the teachers' unions:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/opinion/15kristof.html

RatherGoodBear said:
Jeff, you have your experience and the experience of the non-graduates you've worked with. But can you say with certainty that's the experience of everyone without a degree?

You mean experience in the real world? Yes, that's where I've been since graduating, so I'm familiar with it as well.

Brian -- This thread was slowing drifting to sleep on its own and now you want to kick the hornets' nest of the teachers union? :)

Jeff said:

RatherGoodBear said:
Jeff, you have your experience and the experience of the non-graduates you've worked with. But can you say with certainty that's the experience of everyone without a degree?

You mean experience in the real world? Yes, that's where I've been since graduating, so I'm familiar with it as well.

My experience is in the real world as well. Because it's different from yours, that makes it less valid? You maintain that the handful of people you know who don't have degrees can't function in the real world, so therefore it must be true for everyone. What institution of higher learning instilled that tidbit of critical thinking?

I'm not invalidating anything. Why are some of you getting so defensive about this? I didn't say the people I encountered couldn't function in the real world, I said they were less qualified to handle the details of their jobs compared to those who did go to college. That has been my experience. I believe it's plausible that would be the case, in my field, elsewhere.

Lord Gonchar said:
Interesting, because I've always felt that being good at math goes hand in hand with being good at music. Music at it's core is nothing more than math.

Well, yes, but that's the easy math. :)