Poor Operations At SeaWorld Orlando

So I went to SeaWorld Orlando recently and I noticed that most rides were only running one train even though it was a crowded day. At one point, Mako was running two just fine but then they took one off. Does anyone know why they do this? Thanks.

That's disappointing to hear, and seems like a common complaint lately. We did BGT/SWO maybe 5-6 years ago and ops were great even though both parks were relatively quiet. All rides were running multiple trains semi-efficiently, and we enjoyed all day walk on's for Mako, Kraken, Kumba, Montu, Cheetah Hunt, etc. The only thing more than a station wait was Manta at SWO which was always listed at 30-45 minutes. We ended up buying a SWO daily quick queue for $15 (lowest I've ever seen a line skipping pass) and were able to get multiple laps on that no issue.

Mako might have had an issue with one train they had to pull, and the third is likely in rehab. That doesn't explain why the rest of them were only running one, as really they should only have one train out a time for rehab. Seems like a typical penny wise yet pound foolish attempts to save a few dollars, especially if it's a crowded day.

The one train ops seems to be the norm now for both SeaWorld Orlando and Busch Gardens Tampa. On my last trip to BGT every coaster was running one train, even Iron Gwazi, making station waits on each ride 30-45 minutes. (Cheetah Hunt was running two trains/one station and managing to stack). Sheikra was on one train with a line all the way down the stairs, which was easily a 45-60 minute wait. SWO was the same on my last visit, including one train on their newest, Pipeline and IceBreaker.

I haven't seen Mako with a third train even visible in the storage shed in years. But in the last year especially, even on weekends or peak times, these parks seem to run everything one train or bust.

SeaWorld has been like that for years. If you really want to compare favorably to Disney and Universal, you can't do that. People notice. You might wait an hour for Hagrid's or Guardians, but there are always moving trains. You never feel like the wait was long because of operational decisions.

Weird, I was out there beginning of Dec. and there were multiple trains on everything save for Mako. Everything was a station wait, and no more than 5 minutes. BGT however, they were running one train on Shiekra, with the line down the stairs. One train on Kumba and Montu. Two on Cheetah, but they were barely making interval to not stack. Two on Iron Gwazi and were stacking every dispatch.

Why is this an acceptable practice? Does park management just not care anymore? There has been a definite decline in quality of visit not just at BGT and SWO, but it seems to be at just about every park in the country. Why does it feel like SF and CF are in a race to the bottom along with Seaworld and Busch now as well.

It seems that Disney/Uni are the only ones with consistent experience, outside of Dollywood/SDC, or Knoebels and Holiday World.

Really??? Knoebels and Holiday world, in the middle of nowhere, with limited staff pools, how are they keeping things running so well??

Knoebel's is mainly pay-per-ride, being exclusively ticket-only on weekends. It's amazing how much more parks care about capacity when their income is directly tied to it.

Disney/Uni

Are significantly more expensive, with significantly higher visitor numbers, so they can afford to pay reasonably well compared to Seas.

Dollywood/SDC, or Knoebels and Holiday World.

These are very small seasonal parks, with a focus on guest experience, and uniqueness due to the owner's goals above all else.

CF/SF/Seas have adjusted terribly to the Post-Covid Labor Market, CP and KI seam to be the only parks to semi properly adjust pay, and in turn have ok ops.

They need to add maybe $2-4 dollar hourly to ops positions to get ahead of fast food and cushy retail pay.

At Kinzel era CP the Ride ops made $2-3 more then Foods and Games, had age restrictions, and was semi tough to get on a coaster crew.

They just really need to adjust for Inflation and Gen Z's taste, or like BGW find middle-aged people who don't want to stoop to fast food, or retail.

Dollywood/SDC

...

These are very small seasonal parks

Wat?

Wat?

I forgot to remove DW/SDC from Knoebels/Holiday World.

Yes, Dollywood is hitting 3 million last year, and SDC at 2.2 ish. DW is definitely now nationally talked about in the past 8 years, and with Dolly herself popularity rising again.

SWO is still at roughly 4.5 million.

But as a chain Hereschend is still quite regional and 3 parks, compared to Seas, let alone Disney/Uni/ or CF/SF.

Sharpel007:

CF/SF/Seas have adjusted terribly to the Post-Covid Labor Market, CP and KI seam to be the only parks to semi properly adjust pay, and in turn have ok ops.

They need to add maybe $2-4 dollar hourly to ops positions to get ahead of fast food and cushy retail pay.

So, they have decided that instead of providing a good experience and raising prices, which is likely not even necessary, they could just pay the extra to the workers and less to the shareholders to ensure long term stability and further market growth. They would rather continue to worsen the experience and run the business into the ground, then what? Merge or sell to someone else and then the executives cash out their bonus? Most likely.

Honestly, what is their long-term goal? Many of these parks are notably worse than they were 10-20 years ago, you would think that in a business which is primarily experience based that experience would be the most important thing they would focus on.

I truly enjoy visiting theme parks, but I find myself walking away from parks that are operated in this fashion. I don't have a huge desire to drop funds to visit these places, but Knoebels seems to get me there for a visit every year because it is much more enjoyable. I was debating a CP trip this year before the merger potentially ruins them, but after my last visits I'm not even sure it is justified. I could do something else or visit a different park that would be more fun than standing in a line forever because the ride ops are understaffed and in absolutely no hurry to get the line moving.

Sharpel007:

CP and KI seam to be the only parks

Sharpel007:

Disney/Uni

Are significantly more expensive, with significantly higher visitor numbers, so they can afford to pay reasonably well compared to Seas.

First off, 4.5 million annual guests is not insignificant. Second, they make a choice about what to pay their workers and how to price their tickets. It's not about what they can "afford."

• Disney starts tickets at $140 for most days outside of fall online, multi-day same, pays union members around $15.
• Universal starts tickets at $120+ for single-day online, multi-day $90/day (in practice much higher), pay starts at $17.
• SeaWorld starts tickets at $100 for single-day online, pay starts around $14.

Even if I had none of my coaster enthusiast knowledge, I can't imagine paying the triple digit gate price for SWO or BGT and being even remotely pleased with the value for my money given the current in park experience.

Sharpel007:

At Kinzel era CP the Ride ops made $2-3 more then Foods and Games, had age restrictions, and was semi tough to get on a coaster crew.

No we didn't. We made minimum wage. Leads made more, but it was like fifty cents to a dollar more. But we did have obtainable goals to get a pretty decent bonus at the end of the season. Coaster crews and high volume rides were generally reserved for returning team members and would fill thereafter, but everything was gender segregated back then so requests tended to be limited. I only got power tower my first year because I went to high school with the lead.

I was at SWO last January and it was pretty much one train operation on everything, but there wasn't anyone in the park either. Mako had two trains but I have to assume there was a rider quota to dispatch since we had to sit and wait for more guests to fill seats. Manta was also running one train but was still oddly enough operating both stations. Again, assumed that it was creating a false wait to fill more seats. Grover's crew was allowing us to stay on the ride and were able to get multiple laps which thrilled my son, but my knees hated it. Ice breaker wasn't operating the day we went.

BGT the next day was a completely different story. It was busier and they were running everything with multiple trains with the exception of Montu, which just had a single train but the wait was just a few cycles. The longest wait was for cheetah hunt which was about 30 minutes, but was running either three or four trains and both stations.

We went to Islands of Adventure on a Friday and the place was packed as to be expected. We didn't even think about Disney that trip as we wanted to do other things and one day at Disney isn't worth it.

We only get down to Orlando every to every other year, so I may have no idea what I'm talking about, but it seemed that most of the park staff were retirees. I tend to think it's forecasting, not expecting the level of traffic that's coming through the gates. However, the unskilled work force is more and more limited as it's so much easier to continue with higher education now. It's more expensive, but easier to obtain. Not to mention it's less of a commitment now since the majority of schools offer online classes by default. I'm currently working on my MBA and have yet to attend an in-person class. I'm shookith that I'm paying this much money to reach a chapter of a book and do an online quiz, but this is the world we're in now.

From what I have heard from a few friends of friends of acquaintances that know a co-worker (#orlandolife) the one train ops essentially come down to reducing costs. One train ops not only require fewer employees on a ride platform, but it also puts far less wear and tear on ride vehicles and other mechanical elements of a coaster. Any drop in guest satisfaction is deemed to be worth it for the cost savings, especially since overall guest demand at SWO and BGT is typically much less than Disney and Universal.

I don't really understand why one train operation should require less staffing than two trains. With two trains you are literally just reducing the idle time and keeping those bodies busy/productive a higher percentage of the time. Now in a situation like Magnum or an older ride where the ride is not really designed to stack more than two trains, I can see that going from 2 trains to 3 would require more staffing.

The mechanical wear and tear on trains, motors, etc is definitely a factor, but if these parks are operating on such thin margins that saving wear on a train is making a major difference to their bottom line, then they are all in deep trouble quite frankly.

When I worked at CP (by the way the guy above was right that rides people did not make more and leads made like 15 (ATL) or 30 (TL) cents more per hour), if someone did not show up in the morning, we still opened Magnum with all three trains and just figured out a way to make it work - either with just two people on each side of the train (sometimes even one person during a rotation) or by combining the crowd/freeway (now fastlane) position. I know they won't run the third train now without 5 people working on the train at all times. Apparently management and IROC have managed to solve some non-existent problem there...

Just as you saw a decline in efficiency when parks went from pay per ride to pay one price, we're now seeing it taken to the extreme with parks going from say 80 or 90% daily tickets to a much higher mix of season pass visitors and especially pass holders with meal plans. If they have their revenue from your pass and your meal plan up front, what incentive do they have to run the place right and make sure you come back a bunch of times? In some ways, it might be better for them if you didn't keep coming back since they already took your money and now you're just coasting them space in the park, staffing and food.

Our only recourse is to not buy the pass in the first place and only visit the parks that we feel do things right. I think the next year or two are going to be very critical for Cedar Flags to do things right in terms of operations and guest satisfaction. Unfortunately, I'm not optimistic they will. Otherwise there are plenty of people who will simply stop buying the passes and stop going at all. They may have eliminated the competition with another park chain, but they haven't eliminated the competition with other leisure activities.

Was at BGT back in the summer 23 and experienced the same thing. But Ops got better later in the afternoon. They started adding more trains but the ride ops were definitely in no hurry to get trains moving. It would take forever to load and get the trains out of the station.

Sea World San Antonio is basically the same way. Slow ride ops unless it’s an extremely busy day during the summer, then they will run more trains

it feels like they move slow to help sell more ‘quick queue’ up charges. I mean, if they would move at a faster pace, then there wouldn’t be a as much customer motivation to add the fast passes

Sounds like the parks are using more of what is formally called analytics (as are many businesses). Some people lament that the "bean counters" are in charge. But there was always some time of process businesses went through even if they did not formally focus and analyze the various numbers. Often times the process created counterintuitive results though meaning the best business decisions where not being made in any event. Not necessarily the case they are being made here but its at least more purposeful/thoughtful.

I don't know this for sure, but I can bet that the operational and maintenance costs of most rides pale compared to the labor cost to operate them. So just operate them, with multiple trains. Maybe that's different for a ride like Top Thrill given its power requirements, but your average coaster with a chain lift? I just don't buy that more trains is vastly more expensive. Furthermore, there's a cost to having guests in line where they're not buying stuff, and a cost to the vibes they get seeing a train dispatch every five minutes. You aren't building any kind of loyalty that way.

All this talk is making me quite worried that I've been spoiled rotten by KI and am going to really hate visiting other parks that aren't run the same.

Partner and I have gone all-in with season drink/dining and FL+ the last two years and we live <20 min away, so we went a _lot_. Both years they've run the park like a well oiled machine. Every train on every coaster, every day. I went at least 60 times this year, and I can count on one hand the number of days I saw a coaster running minus a train. Ops were usually what I would call "quick" and most delays were guest-caused. Flat rides all open as well, the only thing I noticed continually closed was the coke stand in the back. Food is pretty good for a park and lines were rarely more than 10 minutes; the long line was mostly the overcrowded Skyline. This isn't home park bias, trust me... I get irritable as I get older and I'd call them out no problem if I had reason to. As it is, I'm more than satisfied enough to continue dropping $1500+ for all-in.

I don't know, does KI have more autonomy than the other CF parks to run like that, or are the other CF parks also doing pretty well and I'm just hearing amplified negativity about them?

I'm definitely skittish about this merger screwing things up here, but at least we have one more year (hopefully) as-is.