Phantom's Revenge trains
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I'm not sure if this topic has been discussed recently, but I was wondering if anyone knows what the real deal is concerning the trains for Phantom's Revenge?
I was under the impression that the original 1991 Arrow chassis were to be retained and the bodies were going to be replaced with Morgan bodies. Is this still the case, or have the plans changed (as some other PR details have changed in the past)?
If the Arrow bodies are going to be replaced, I am curious to see if the coaster will indeed feel like a Morgan hyper or a loop-less Steel Phantom. I am pretty sure that all Morgan hypers up until this point have used six seat (three bench) cars... if the Arrow chassis are kept, the cars will have to be four-seaters. In addition, don't all Arrow loopers have trailer-style cars (where the rear wheels of one car function as the front wheels of the one behind it?) I thought that Morgan cars have wheels at all four corners, as well as twice the number of guide wheels? I could be wrong, but I thought I read that somewhere.
I was just curious to hear from some people and try to find out what type of trains will be used, and how people feel the coaster will function considering these things, if that is the case.
I was under the impression that the original 1991 Arrow chassis were to be retained and the bodies were going to be replaced with Morgan bodies. Is this still the case, or have the plans changed (as some other PR details have changed in the past)?
If the Arrow bodies are going to be replaced, I am curious to see if the coaster will indeed feel like a Morgan hyper or a loop-less Steel Phantom. I am pretty sure that all Morgan hypers up until this point have used six seat (three bench) cars... if the Arrow chassis are kept, the cars will have to be four-seaters. In addition, don't all Arrow loopers have trailer-style cars (where the rear wheels of one car function as the front wheels of the one behind it?) I thought that Morgan cars have wheels at all four corners, as well as twice the number of guide wheels? I could be wrong, but I thought I read that somewhere.
I was just curious to hear from some people and try to find out what type of trains will be used, and how people feel the coaster will function considering these things, if that is the case.
I have been wondering this myself.
I would guess it would be easier and cheaper to go with the Morgan style 3-bench trains.
I would guess it would be easier and cheaper to go with the Morgan style 3-bench trains.
But will the Morgan trains fit through the T-Bolt? Morgan trains ride way high on the track. Arrow corkscrew trains ride considerably lower.
As far as I know, the are still using the same chassis, but will the use the same wheel assemblies?
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Scott W. Short
scott@midwestcoastercentral.com
http://www.midwestcoastercentral.com
As far as I know, the are still using the same chassis, but will the use the same wheel assemblies?
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Scott W. Short
scott@midwestcoastercentral.com
http://www.midwestcoastercentral.com
Kennywood had to dismantle part of the Thunderbolt so that the drop into the ravine could be modified, so I am sure that the park allowed for that when the started putting the Thunderbolt back together. They could have easily added a few more feet of clearance.
The t-bolt clearance is much more than it seems. Arrow required 8 feet of headroom when this feature was originally being designed.
As for the trains, yes, they have the old Arrow chassis with Morgan bodies. 4 seat cars, 28 passenger trains. They're purple.
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I refuse to add a signature. Damn, too late.
As for the trains, yes, they have the old Arrow chassis with Morgan bodies. 4 seat cars, 28 passenger trains. They're purple.
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I refuse to add a signature. Damn, too late.
The wheel system on the steel phantoms trains was different than the old arrow chasis. Each car on the steel phantom had front and back wheels, not wheels in the center that were the front and back wheels for the center cars. This must have been the system on older arrow loopers, like the corkscrew at cedar point.
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Steel Phantom: A Decade of Thrills. (1991-2000)
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Steel Phantom: A Decade of Thrills. (1991-2000)
So do the cars have OTSR's or have the been fitted with a lapbar?
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BMCOASTER
bmcoaster@wi.rr.com
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BMCOASTER
bmcoaster@wi.rr.com
According to some photo's published in the last First Drop, it looks like the trains will very minimal. As much as I can tell from it, it looks like Morgan is using the same chasis with a minimalist, headrest-free body. Purple they are, this is going to be a whole new Phantom!
Well, this news is certainly comforting! Hopefully the train bodies will be more "open" than those on other Morgan hypers, like Mamba and Steel Force.
I had no idea that Arrow has used more than one type of chassis on their looping coasters, I thought that they were all the same!
I had no idea that Arrow has used more than one type of chassis on their looping coasters, I thought that they were all the same!
Let me start by clearing up a couple of misconceptions.
First: When Steel Force was being built, ACE News published a photograph of a Morgan-built steel coaster car and pointed out that it has eight guide wheels (two for each axle). What was not mentioned in that caption is that the Arrow Runaway Train cars are practically the same, with two axles, and dual guide wheels on both axles. It's a necessity when the axles are able to yaw, and you can see this on the original patent issued to Karl Bacon and Ed Morgan. Yes, that's Ed Morgan as in Dana Morgan's dad. You can see that patent at http://capital2.capital.edu/admin-staff/dalthoff/bobsled.html .
Morgan's steel coaster cars are almost identical in basic mechanical design to the Arrow Runaway Train cars except for one significant difference: while Arrow put the axles above the car spine, as shown in the patent, Morgan puts the axles below, so the Morgan car rides higher on the track.
Second item: Arrow has not significantly changed the multi-element looping car chassis. In 1989 or 1990 (just in time for Steel Phantom) they switched from 8" to 12" road wheels, and in 1999 they added a safety bracket to the last axle of the train. All of the Arrow looping coaster trains, from the Corkscrew at Silverwood to the Tennessee Tornado at Dollywood, including Drachen Fire, use the same basic design.
Phantom's Revenge is using the running gear from the Steel Phantom train. Basically all the same hardware as Steel Phantom. Which is a good thing, because Morgan's usual coaster car might not be flexible enough to negotiate that first drop...but the Arrow trailered train is known to work on that track. Basically, Morgan has designed a new shell, with new seats and lap bars, to fit the Arrow chassis. It's that simple. Why do people keep making it more complicated than it is?? :)
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
First: When Steel Force was being built, ACE News published a photograph of a Morgan-built steel coaster car and pointed out that it has eight guide wheels (two for each axle). What was not mentioned in that caption is that the Arrow Runaway Train cars are practically the same, with two axles, and dual guide wheels on both axles. It's a necessity when the axles are able to yaw, and you can see this on the original patent issued to Karl Bacon and Ed Morgan. Yes, that's Ed Morgan as in Dana Morgan's dad. You can see that patent at http://capital2.capital.edu/admin-staff/dalthoff/bobsled.html .
Morgan's steel coaster cars are almost identical in basic mechanical design to the Arrow Runaway Train cars except for one significant difference: while Arrow put the axles above the car spine, as shown in the patent, Morgan puts the axles below, so the Morgan car rides higher on the track.
Second item: Arrow has not significantly changed the multi-element looping car chassis. In 1989 or 1990 (just in time for Steel Phantom) they switched from 8" to 12" road wheels, and in 1999 they added a safety bracket to the last axle of the train. All of the Arrow looping coaster trains, from the Corkscrew at Silverwood to the Tennessee Tornado at Dollywood, including Drachen Fire, use the same basic design.
Phantom's Revenge is using the running gear from the Steel Phantom train. Basically all the same hardware as Steel Phantom. Which is a good thing, because Morgan's usual coaster car might not be flexible enough to negotiate that first drop...but the Arrow trailered train is known to work on that track. Basically, Morgan has designed a new shell, with new seats and lap bars, to fit the Arrow chassis. It's that simple. Why do people keep making it more complicated than it is?? :)
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
Thanks RideMan, if there was anyone who could answer my questions, I knew it would be you!
I was pretty sure that what you said was the case, but so much has been said of Phantom's Revenge, it is often hard to separate the truth from the rumors, as Kennywood doesn't seem to have released a lot of hard information regarding their latest creation.
I would sure love to see a picture or rendering of the "new" PR trains, although I have come to terms with waiting until the ride actually opens.
I was pretty sure that what you said was the case, but so much has been said of Phantom's Revenge, it is often hard to separate the truth from the rumors, as Kennywood doesn't seem to have released a lot of hard information regarding their latest creation.
I would sure love to see a picture or rendering of the "new" PR trains, although I have come to terms with waiting until the ride actually opens.
Rob, the closest I've seen to a picture is the photograph in the last First Drop (the one with Tusenfryd on the cover and my article about LIMs on Page 70 :) ) of one of the car shells in the Morgan glass shop. It basically looks like an Arrow Corkscrew shell but with a decorative flare on the back, and no headrests. :)
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
Thanks Dave... I wish I received First Drop so I could see it (although it sounds like there are lots of great articles in that magazine), although your description has banished from my mind what I imagined it looking like. I was thinking of a lower, shorter version of a standard Morgan train, thankfully, that is not the case!
If the same Arrow chassis is used, will it still be rough. I thought that the wheel assemblies to fit quite tight on the track. Or is it the transitions that were the problem on Steel Phantom?
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Coasters- a little slice of heaven
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Coasters- a little slice of heaven
The transitions were a BIG problem. My dad always joked that it looked like Arrow erected the hills and loops where they felt like it, THEN they would go and find a pieces of track that would connect the elements, and that's why their transitions were so poor.
On PR, the transitions look SMOOTH and beautiful. I don't think that it will be rough at all.
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- Peabody
On PR, the transitions look SMOOTH and beautiful. I don't think that it will be rough at all.
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- Peabody
Check it out:
http://kennywood.coasterbuzz.com/gallery/img.asp?PicID=435
These trains look pretty cool, as do these new lap bars.
Here's the pic of the train:
http://kennywood.coasterbuzz.com/gallery/img.asp?PicID=434 *** This post was edited by chris on 5/7/2001. ***
http://kennywood.coasterbuzz.com/gallery/img.asp?PicID=435
These trains look pretty cool, as do these new lap bars.
Here's the pic of the train:
http://kennywood.coasterbuzz.com/gallery/img.asp?PicID=434 *** This post was edited by chris on 5/7/2001. ***
Thanks for the link, chris... those lapbars look really interesting, I'm left wondering why they are going to ratchet from the side? My only concern would be comfort for larger riders...
Side lap bars??!?! Looks like Morgan took inspiration from a Chance Falling Star for this one. Did anyone else notice that PR will have seat belts?
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Scott W. Short
scott@midwestcoastercentral.com
http://www.midwestcoastercentral.com
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Scott W. Short
scott@midwestcoastercentral.com
http://www.midwestcoastercentral.com
I'll be putting more pics up later on my site, when I can connect to the FTP server.
The speculation is over. The new trains are DEFINITELY the old chassis with new shells. I believe the reason the lap bar comes down from the side is simply a matter of that was the best place to put them -- don't forget, the old Arrow trains didn't have anything on the floor either.
The new trains also have a self-retracting seatbelt.
I was VERY impressed by what I saw. I REALLY hope to have the pics up later today, when I do I'll contribute a news item...
They're almost done, and the new coaster is looking cooler and cooler as we get there.
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--Greg
http://www.pobox.com/~gregleg/
The speculation is over. The new trains are DEFINITELY the old chassis with new shells. I believe the reason the lap bar comes down from the side is simply a matter of that was the best place to put them -- don't forget, the old Arrow trains didn't have anything on the floor either.
The new trains also have a self-retracting seatbelt.
I was VERY impressed by what I saw. I REALLY hope to have the pics up later today, when I do I'll contribute a news item...
They're almost done, and the new coaster is looking cooler and cooler as we get there.
-------------
--Greg
http://www.pobox.com/~gregleg/
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