Pay-to-cut: Not Fun For Everyone
RE: Freakylick's last post:
Yes, essentially you can stand in two lines at once with any of the virtual queue systems. It's the one point, I simply cannot argue. It's a weakness with the system.
Not sure why some parks haven't implimented virtual queues of some kind. I imagine a system like the electronic Q-bot/FastLane that SF uses costs quite a bit to install.
It also seems that it's the biggest (and in turn usually most filled) parks that use them, the Universal's, Disney's, CP, SF parks.
Still an interesting question.
*** Edited 6/1/2005 5:45:27 PM UTC by Lord Gonchar***
Six Flags makes bad decisions, but they aren't that stupid...
I suppose it could be quite costly and maybe that is a deterrent for smaller parks (especially those whose lines are kept relatively short to begin with ;-) ). But looking at the 2004 attendance figures compiled by AB, four Busch Parks are among the top 25 as compared to 3 for SF. I am sure this question will just have to go unanswered...for now.
Tekno...
The bottom line of my point was that the only company implementing this system is one that isn't in the best financial shape. And sometimes, that can lead to bad decisions. It can be difficult to justify cutting a revenue stream that you have already poured a lot of money into when you are struggling....especially when it is very difficult to quantify the cost (read: lost revenues) of the system. Like I said before, I don't know the answer to the question. I just found it ironic/coincidental (but far from any type of proof) that the only company using it is in financial trouble and has a relatively poor reputation for customer service.
To answer your question..Yes, I have complained. Guess what their response was?
a) it lowers the over all capacity of the ride, as it takes an extra load cycle
b) it causes rows like 2 and 8 (on an 8 car train) to load about half as fast as any other rows (assuming VQ riders cannot ride in 1).
I would have no problem at all is VQ riders were given single rider status (they just filled in empty spots - more practical on 4 across where there'd be more empties than on 2 across) or if they weren't allowed to go ride other major attractions during the VQ time. In both cases, the VQ riders do not affect the wait time for regular riders.
As was mentioned above, the current system allows VQ riders to wait in line for two rides at once, which does affect other riders.
Hobbes: "What's the point of attaching a number to everything you do?"
Calvin: "If your numbers go up, it means you're having more fun."
Finally, on a ride like KK, where breakdowns happen frequently, the estimated ride wait is almost always less than the actual wait. Unless the estimate includes breakdowns....
Hobbes: "What's the point of attaching a number to everything you do?"
Calvin: "If your numbers go up, it means you're having more fun."
freakylick said:
On a somewhat related tangent that people have begun to touch upon... People are jumping to defend the system...but if the system a)is profitable and b)equitable/fair (or whatever word you want to use here), then why aren't other parks doing this??... Why doesn't Knoebels or Busch or HP use it?
I'd say Knoebel's doesn't use it because they don't need to for several reasons.
1) Since they pride themselves on being a "hometown" park that offers free parking and free admission, this whole pay-to-cut thing does not fit in at all with that concept. First come, first served is a pretty good hometown concept.
2) I have no idea how that would or could even be done with a pay as you ride system. You'd need a separate ticket booth and ticket taker for each ride you'd offer it, not to mention separate entrances that may need to be constructed. What would the "premium price" for Phoenix be-- $2.50 instead of $1.80? Just get in line and wait for 10-15 minutes like everybody else.
3) Since Knoebel's crews get people on and off the rides in a flash, anyone trying to enter, say, Phoenix or Twister through the exit would probably get knocked on his or her ass several times before he/she got to the platform.
While Hershey is a much bigger park, I would have to say it's still basically a "small town" park, in that it draws its customer base not from large cities but smaller cities and towns. And I can say this because I am one, but rural Pennsylvanians are a stubborn, provincial bunch. They don't like change and they're basically cheap. Although I might pay extra to watch Gonch and Tekno try to convince some PA farmboys that they really aren't "cutting in line." :)
Actually, last October during HP in the Dark, they were taking surveys of people in various ride queues about their willingness to use (or pay to use) devices that would perform these various functions (reserve ride times, download things while waiting in line, restaurant reservations, contact with others in your group, etc.). It will be interesting to see what comes of it. Most people probably said they'd want one but wouldn't want to pay for it. Maybe I'll be proven wrong.
They don't like change and they're basically cheap. Although I might pay extra to watch Gonch and Tekno try to convince some PA farmboys that they really aren't "cutting in line."
Heh. I grew up in and currently live in Western PA. There's not a lot of difference between the folks here and halfway across the state. Rural PA is rural PA.
I like to think I can teach the dullest of bulbs to shine brightly. ;)
(it's a joke already!)
Although if Tekno and I ever cross paths I vow to grab the camcorder and head out to make what would undoubtedly be one of the funniest enthusiast videos ever to hit the net. :)
Ok, Gonch said this "So you were essentially standing in two lines at once. One physically and one virtually."
When you purchase a Q-bot you are essentially paying for a second admission into the park for your "clone". This clone has a limited capability, so it gets a discounted admission (at the parks with free systems, your clone gets admitted to the park for free). This clone doesn't occupy any physical space, but it occupies a virtual space.
Perhaps people would see the system as "more fair" if you were paying for a true second admission that had just as much free-reign as a place holder in the park as a human being does. (So my clone can hold my place at the food stands, all of the rides, the bathrooms, etc).
By using the system you're able to be a more efficient human being by paying for the ability to be in two places at the same time.
The remedy for the physical space vs virtual space would be to have some sort of physical line holding device to make the line just as long physically to represent the physical space these virtual clones are taking up.
Now, if I could pay for a Q-bot to be at home cleaning while I'm standing in line at an amusement park, that would definitely be worth the cost.
The other analogy I haven't seen yet is the restaurant reservation system. There's a limited capacity in a restaurant. Often times if you arrive without a reservation, you have to wait for a table. Or, you can call in a reservation which allows your name written in the reservation system to hold your spot while you are somewhere else. Therefore, there is a virtual placeholder allowing you to be physically in one place while virtually in line at the restaurant and when you arrive at the resteraunt you can waltz to the front of the line and be seated immediately.
Good points to ponder...
Personally, I'd bet that they will stay and even expand.
lata, jeremy
zacharyt.shutterfly.com
PlaceHolder for Castor & Pollux
You don't know how many people I saw yelling at VQers in KK's line yesterday even though, presumably that had "waited just as long." That could hurt the park's bottom line, eventually (or just get more people to buy Q-Bot).
I've seen it at every park that offers some kind of virtual queue - even the freebies. It comes from lack of understanding. Look there's a machine or person right over there where you can get a ticket or handstamp and they're available to everyone - it's not too hard to figure out.
I think virtual queue users should complain that they get harassed when they use the system. ;)
Sounds to me like more and more people are jumping aboard the virtual queue bandwagon with these stories popping up of Q-bot users stalling lines and TR's mentioning VERY long waits to get one (oh, the irony - maybe they can sell a virtual queue for the virtual queue line ;) )
The industry is changing. You can either:
- Play the game
- B*tch and Moan
- Quit going to parks
- Discuss and debate it endlessly on an enthusiast forum
Seems like even parks like Hershey are at least interested. I think it's only a matter of time before it's the norm.
*** Edited 6/1/2005 7:13:51 PM UTC by Lord Gonchar***
I would not endorse putting my system in at one time. I would start with a dual system just like Six Flags and Disney are presently doing. I would keep the “dummy” line for those who refuse to pay a premium and need to have that sense of “value.” Before you guys cream me, may I state that I never have, nor do I plan on PAYING for line cutting/holding privileges. I stand in the “dummy” line with the other peons. The “market” system that I’ve championed would originally be used for fastpass pricing only.
With time, I would gradually increase the number of seats available to the premium market and decrease the “dummy” seats. This only makes sense. Who would you rather have in your coaster seat if you owned the park…
A: Joe Cool Cheapo Public Man who paid general admission and nothing else…
Or
B: Snotty Snoot Man who pays a premium for the same seat…????
The answer is pretty basic and obvious!
With time, I believe the public could be reprogrammed to tolerate and even enjoy the benefits only available in my “market” system. Specifically the benefits are reduced waiting times and flexible pricing structures that could be utilized during less crowded days/times.
I agree there would be difficulties with implementation. This is especially true with general admission pricing. Should there be general admission at all? Obviously, there would need to be a means to increase profit from those who come to parks and do not ride a lot. I’ve avoided introducing my Corn Dog and Lemonade instant market ideas, as I wanted to keep this thread on topic. :-)
Anyhow, I agree with your counterargument in a sense, but still think that given the proper time and brainwashing, the public could be made to accept this system. If you think about it, this is EXACTLY what is happening now. I’ve just come up with a system that is much more profitable to the park.
I just cannot believe how much money these parks are letting slip away. They have a product with a quite inelastic demand as evidenced by the continuing quarterly reports of increased attendance figures. They’ve got line management systems that are woefully inadequate. People are waiting longer and longer to utilize their product. It is just plain stupid business sense to not change their antiquated pricing structures.
I understand and sympathize with those who argue the sentimental value of a trip to the amusement park and how everything should be cheap/free and available to all. However, this is just plain stupidity when put in the proper context of a capitalistic society.
In conclusion, I must say that you whiny wimps are lucky Jeff Smith doesn’t run the Six Flags. You would only be able to afford rerides on Superman on a Wednesday morning about 6:00 am, provided of course I bothered to open the doors before noon which is about the time the market indicates any park reaches its maximal profit taking potential…
They introduced the FastPass for free. Over the years people have come to accept and understand the system. They recently filed some very interesting patent applications regarding the system.
Current interpretations of the filing indicate reduced freebies and a hierarchy of FastPass access based on in-park resort spending.
It's essentially the system you outline except that the cost is paid upfront (with resort booking) rather than on the spot.
The parks are clearly creating varying degrees of convenient experience based on the customers willingness to pay. Disney led the way with FastPass and now we're seeing 'Stage 2' of the plan, so to speak.
It's getting very close to my long time predition (well, since the first virtual queue debate popped up around here, no desire to dig it up right now) of:
Gonch predicted:
I still think Disney will eventually get to the point where many guests are reserving their days in advance.
It's much closer than you think.
Let me repeat what I said two posts up...
The industry is changing. You can either:
- Play the game
- B*tch and Moan
- Quit going to parks
- Discuss and debate it endlessly on an enthusiast forum
*** Edited 6/1/2005 7:28:51 PM UTC by Lord Gonchar***
I like the A & D combo, myself. :)
Tekno (or whoever pm'd him):
Maybe SF should start counting the virtual clones in their attendance figures ;-)
McDonalds and Wendy's don't have a "reservation system", so I am not sure what you are talking about. :-)
Gonch:
(Regarding your four possible actions)
a-I would not do. I try not to be hypocritical.
b-Done, but in a polite manner...But I have a feeling it fell upon deaf ears (and I am not referring to this thread).
c-I haven't gone that far yet, but I do go to certain parks more than those with pay to cut systems. If this does become the norm..This may just become a thing of the past for me (And then the party can really begin :-) )
d-HHmm..Sounds like a good idea to me...Let's give that a try ;-)
I know we aren't really going to get anywhere with this, so I have tried to lighten the tone of my posts a little...
...but Tekno just won't let this go. (j/k) *** Edited 6/1/2005 7:39:31 PM UTC by freakylick***
You know though, the industry went through a big pricing change before. The move from Pay Per Ride to Pay One Price. Sure some parks still hang onto the old PPR scheme, but even most of (all of?) those offer a POP admission.
Think about it. You could go to the park with any amount of money and ride something. Was it fair to offer access to all rides for the entire day for the people able to afford a lump sum cost?
Or am I looking at it wrong and the point is that things got to where most could afford it and it made more sense?
At any rate, historically parks were PPR and then an industry-wide move to POP was made. I think we're seeing the birth of the next industry-wide pricing move. From POP to 'virtual queueing' or even in the long run 'reserve your day'
It won't be a matter of if one likes it or not, it just will be and for the next generation of park goers it will just be normal. We'll be the old timers talking of carefree days roaming the park with no schedule and simple pay to enter schemes...
...kind of like the old timers now fondly remember days of clutching ride tickets and being able to still go to and have fun at the park with a few nickels or Disney fans remember the "A,B,C,D and E-ticket"
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