Pay-to-cut: Not Fun For Everyone
If the park wants to designate the front row to FastLane, that would be fine. At least I know I'll have access to the rest of the coaster. But, FastLaners would have to wait in line a little longer and that would be a crime.
When FastLaners can bump anyone back out of any seat anytime they want, everyone else in line gets screwed. Who knows when they'll get on the ride. It all depends on the volume of people cutting in front of them because the park sold their access to someone else. *** Edited 6/4/2005 2:25:47 PM UTC by rc-madness***
ApolloAndy said:
But why not just upfront, at the ticket counter say "$50 for a Sat., $45 for F or Sun, $40 M-T"?
Because what would you advertise otherwise? Hey, we've got coasters and stuff? Or hey looky, here's a discount cuz you're so dadburned special?
Marketing, folks. Marketing...
-'Playa
NOTE: Severe fecal impaction may render the above words highly debatable.
Two quick things...
First, many parks already force the line though shops and food as it is (ie: AE @ SFGAm with it's food station under the tent & Viper's exit through the store). With the VQ systems, parks are getting you on rides faster so you are spending less time in line for rides and more time in places where they can make more money off you. They need to work in a subtle fashion. By subtly directing you though places of revenue, they don't face a backlash as much as if they were to force you to stay in these places. Same thing goes with prices. If they increase the gate price as suggested in this thread, they would face a stronger backlash than just providing a service for those that want to pay.
Second, the Q-bot does not conflict with their line jumping policy as you are not physically entering the line, leaving the line, then re-entering the line. Rather, you are creating a reservation and entering the line at a special point for people with reservations, much like a restaurant.
The guy said it would be okay only if the folks behind him said they were cool with it. The people said it was only cool if the two of them traded their spots in line, that way their waits wouldn’t be affected. So the guy told the kid, no deal.
This was just one kid, hardly would have affected things at all. Folks still felt it wasn’t right that he got to cut in front of them since they weren’t getting any of that $20.
With FastLane as it stands now we are talking about hundreds of people per-hour cutting in front of folks who bought the same access to the ride. Their deal changes as a result of this new deal offered at a higher price. The park gets the money, the rich get a short cut, the rest of us get handed our hats. *** Edited 6/2/2005 8:47:25 PM UTC by rc-madness***
You know every time I end up in a conversation with one of you virtually queued people in line, folks in line next to me tell me I'm crazy. They say there is no one there and that people in white coats are going to put me in a padded room if I keep pretending that they are there.
Virtually queued people tell me they are in line with me and that they are not off eating lunch or riding something somewhere, but I'm starting to believe they are the crazy ones for believing that. Keep your delusions to yourself! *** Edited 6/2/2005 6:18:29 PM UTC by rc-madness***
onceler said:
Second, the Q-bot does not conflict with their line jumping policy as you are not physically entering the line, leaving the line, then re-entering the line. Rather, you are creating a reservation and entering the line at a special point for people with reservations, much like a restaurant.
Actually, you "virtually" enter the line, "virtually" stand in line, then physically replace your "virtual clone". Why do I feel like a trip to the park is turning into a sci-fi movie?! LOL.
Seriously though, I don't know that any line-jumping policy restricts itself to those that "enter the line, leave the line, then re-enter the line". If that were the case, I could go to any line and walk right to the front and say that I am not line jumping since I never left the line.
Some had viewed this as placeholding (and whether or not they still do view it as such is for them to say)...if that's how you or anyone else see's it, then it is still line-jumping according to the SF definition of line-jumping. Now we have already beat the hell out of whether it's justifiable or not, so I won't go into that.
So, let me get this straight, you sell season passes to people really really cheaply to get a bazillion people in your park every day, then in order to make up for that lost income and to appease some of the crowd who is forced to wait in excessively long lines with the other bazillion people because the ride is only running at half capacity, you sell virtual queueing to people at a premium price.
Sounds like a sound business decision to me. All that's missing is some hooch to get the non-premium crowd really stoked up.
RatherGoodBear said:
Is this the same Six Flags that people talk about in other threads that practically hands their season passes out like Chiclets?
One in the same...And since SF was awesome enough to sell me a cheap (monetarily speaking of course) product, I should be happy with whatever bone they throw me.
So, let me get this straight, you sell season passes to people really really cheaply to get a bazillion people in your park every day, then in order to make up for that lost income and to appease some of the crowd who is forced to wait in excessively long lines with the other bazillion people because the ride is only running at half capacity, you sell virtual queueing to people at a premium price.Sounds like a sound business decision to me.
Note: To avoid accusations of taking things out of context, I left everything and just highlighted.
Does that really sound like sound business??
All that's missing is some hooch to get the non-premium crowd really stoked up.
(Implications ignored) Sorry, but I'm a teetotaler.
Kyle Says: Diamondback was a lot of fun! Made his first time at Kings Island worth it all!
Kyle Fobe said:
I totally agree...those people are cutting in line, but they are doing it for free on a first come first serve basis. It's a system designed to allow upper and lower class people equal oppurtunity and I don't know why you object it? It's free and if you wanted it....you could get it for free....just be there first.
Very good Comrade, I see they have taught you well on the collective farm.
Seriously...
(Since every place calls their system something different, I am just going call them V-Q... Virtual Queue)
In the ideal world, the queue line would just separate to each side and allow me to pass to the front... very similar to Moses parting the Red Sea. But the world is far from ideal, so I know I will have to deal with lines.
So... since the world is not ideal, I have two choices when a park offers V-Q. Don't use the system and Bee-itch and moan about people that do... or use the system.
IF I use the system, I like the Pay systems better. Here's why. It was stated "you could get it for free... just be there first." This means the people at the park earliest have the best shot. Hardly fair (since everyone is throwing that word around) for those of us who live further away. If I visit a park that is a few hours away, I have the choice of either making an over night trip of it... in which case I would have to pay for lodging (in all cases more than I would have to PAY for a V-Q system)... or start out very early.
Let's use Great Adventure. IF Great Adventure would offer a FREE V-Q (they don't... but this is for the sake of artument), I would have to contend possible travel delays on around 150 miles of highway (construction, HEAVYtraffic, rush hour, accidents, weather conditions... any number of things), that I can't really plan for. So... I may or may not get there at opening. Also, if I get there and find the lot filled with 150+ busses (as I did last week), who is going to be better able to make a mad dash to the V-Q distirubtion point? 5,000 high school kids, or myself (not the speediest or most sure footed person around anymore compared to them). What if I am not all that familiar with the park and I can not find the V-Q distribution point? See, these are all "What If's" that I can possibly plan for, but can't control.
HOWEVER... As we know Great Adventure offers a V-Q system for a price. I know going in what it will cost... I can plan for that. No circumstances out of my control will cause me to miss that. Only if I a) do not have enough money to pay for a V-Q system or b) decide not to because I am too cheap (that was my excuse last week).
If money is that tight... then I would probably not be visiting the park on a whim (it would probably be planned in advance) and I would save up the extra cash.
In other words, only my actions (planning and saving) would prevent me from getting a V-Q device on a pay system, while the First Come First Served For Free systems depend on my actions (trying to get there early) AND circumstances out of my control (Consturction, idiot drivers who cause accidents and traffic jams, flat tires, mechanical break downs, detours, TRAFFIC, or the fact that 5 busses carrying 300 screaming teens 10 miles from the local middle school got there 5 minutes before me who had just driven 150 miles).
And don't even get me started on those who consider V-Q "line jumping" and since "line Jumping" is against the rules, should not be allowed. True "Line Jumping" is against the rules... but if a park allows V-Q, then it is with in their set of rules. People who let go of the grab bars and put their arms up while on a coaster are actually breaking more rules than a person using a park sanctioned V-Q system. (Come on, you know as well as I that we have all heard (and ignored) the rules... "keep arms in the train at all times"... and read (and ignored) the diagram of the person sitting in the coaster car with his hands on the grab bar).
As I am reading this, the cynical little troll with the devil horns who is sitting on my left shoulder keeps whispering in my ear.... "Ask all of those folks who LIKE the so called Fair Free system... would they be all in favor of this free system if any park other than a certain one jutting out into Lake Erie would be doing it, and if that same park would make you pay, would that suddenly be 'fair'?"
I guess it's the ***** and moan in me just looking for a fight...or is it the endless debater in me?! ;-)
Also, if I get there and find the lot filled with 150+ busses (as I did last week), who is going to be better able to make a mad dash to the V-Q distirubtion point? 5,000 high school kids, or myself (not the speediest or most sure footed person around anymore compared to them). What if I am not all that familiar with the park and I can not find the V-Q distribution point? See, these are all "What If's" that I can possibly plan for, but can't control.
You brought up an interesting point...but I have a better question to counteract that....What makes you think 5000 high school kids even know about freeway (using Cedar Point as an example)?
It's not highly advertised, and they are high school kids there to have a good time with friends, not fit in every possible attraction there is. How do I know this? I am a high school kid myself, I've been to Cedar Point and parks a like with my school several times, and I don't see many handstamps.
Now to counteract the busses statement, chances are if there are 150+ busses there, they already have sold out of the Q-Bot anyway at Great Adventure or the Freeway at Cedar Point.
I'm guessing your an enthusiast so I take it that you would probably check a park calendar or call the park to make sure there wouldn't be that many people there in the first place anyway, so no problem.
By the way, no high school kid would make a mad dash to a VQ place anyway, they'd make a mad dash to the big yellow and red ride they see pointing out of the sky cuz that thing might scare the s*** out of them.
By the way,
IF I use the system, I like the Pay systems better. Here's why. It was stated "you could get it for free... just be there first." This means the people at the park earliest have the best shot. Hardly fair (since everyone is throwing that word around) for those of us who live further away.
Yeah Cedar Point put that system in for the locals living around the park. ;)
Honestly, if you don't wanna get there in the morning before most people do and get your free pass, thats your problem....not unfair. It's because you don't want to pay for lodging or you don't want to wake up early, not because it's unfair.
Same thing could be said for staying at the hotels, it can be considered unfair for hotel guests to get into the park and ride a few rides, for the guests staying at another hotel, but don't you think that would be bad business and unfair for the people already paying to stay at 1 of Cedar Points 4 hotels not to be let in early? Yes!
Would they have any reason to stay there? No!
Finally in my closing statement, I would just like to say that I personally like Cedar Point's system and even to some extent, Disney and Universal's system. Not because I get perks for being a hotel guest, but because they offer a fair way for all types of people from all nationalities, race, class, and religion to get on rides quicker.
A business's number one priority (or it should be at least) is keeping the customer happy, and I think with the attendance, it shows which businesses keep them happy and which businesses don't.
At least Cedar Point, Disney, and Universal, are fair to their customers. Six Flags, causes confusion, and Paramount is Neutral, Holiday World offers free drinks so were all happy there. :)
I am not a fanboy of any park and I hope that this reflects that,
I just think that some people have a weird way of thinking, saying a system that only people who save up for months in advance or are loaded is better than a system that gives everyone equal oppurtunity.
:)Fobe:) *** Edited 6/3/2005 8:52:17 PM UTC by Kyle Fobe***
Kyle Says: Diamondback was a lot of fun! Made his first time at Kings Island worth it all!
FastPass only offers a set number of guests per hour slot, no exceptions. Its future looks brighter.
If the hook of pay-to-cut is total access and no waits, how can it fulfill that promise once most people buy into it? It will eventually become another fraud offered by the same park promising ride access for park admissions.
The reality is parks are designed for a bunch of people to come together to have a good time, which also involves waiting in lines. Those of you who would rather be at a park without having to deal with other people, please do us all a favor and purchase your private day at the park.
Or just go to the parks on an unpopular day if it is so damn important not to wait in lines. I can’t count the number of times I’ve been to any of these parks when it was practically empty.
The price for pay-to-cut is not just your $35 dollars of your dispensable income. It is everyone elses wait increasing by hours. The price cannot be calculated, it will simply change the amusement park experience for everyone. *** Edited 6/4/2005 2:17:48 PM UTC by rc-madness***
FastLane is flawed for it will eventually cause regular queues to stall out once enough people join in to cut to the front
That's only true if fastlane capacity is unlimited. Clearly, it is limited---fastpass tickets and qbots can sell out. It is easy to tune the number of qbots/ticket packages you sell each day as long as you keep accurate counts of their usage. Since qbots are all electronic, keeping accurate count is easy enough that even Six Flags could do it. Harder with tickets, but possible.
If the hook of pay-to-cut is total access and no waits, how can it fulfill that promise once most people buy into it?
As noted, the number of people who can buy into it is limited. If demand exceeds supply, you don't increase supply, you increase the price. Elementary microeconomics. If you set the price correctly (i.e. high enough) you'll rarely have more people interested in buying than you are willing to sell, the waits for everyone else don't increase dramatically because you've limited the impact of virtual queueing through limited supply, *and* the park makes more money.
All this assumes that the park's operations department is sane enough to realize that one must limit the capacity used by virtual queue riders. Cedar Point clearly is: they limit freeway to 10%. Disney often reserves up to 70% or more of a ride's capacity for fastpass. And, it makes a notable difference in standby waits---compare the standby waits for Pan at DL w/o fastpass to those at DLP or MK with fastpass, and you'll see what I mean. Disney has recently been removing fastpass from capacity monsters that never develop long waits on their own: Pirates at DL, Mansion at MK, etc., in part to address this problem.
Universal and Six Flags seem to understand this, too. Universal Florida's hotel capacity is quite limited compared to the parks, and Six Flags sells out of tickets/qbots on busy days. It's a coarser control mechanism to be sure, but a control mechanism nevertheless. So, unless the operations departments in these parks screw up royally, your doomsday scenario of stalled lines and denied access just doesn't happen. On the other hand, if they do screw up royally, they probably have other problems aside from fastlane/qbots stalling queues, because they are incompetent.
have a good time, which also involves waiting in lines.
How is this a good time? True, I'd rather not be in a park that is empty, but I'd also rather not wait an hour for a 10 minute ride if I can wait 10-15 minutes instead. Waits below the ride time really don't improve your circumstances much, though, thanks to Amdahl's Law, which is why most parks don't allow entry up the exit, but rather a merge close to the station.
However, if it's such a good time, I can offer you some consoluation. The virtual queuers are just giving you more good times for each ride you wait for!
promising ride access for park admissions
I challenge you to find a single park that actually makes this promise. For example, here is a quote from Disney's Terms and Conditions for WDW tickets:
Parks, attractions or entertainment may change operating hours; close due to refurbishing, capacity, weather or special events; and may otherwise change or be discontinued without notice and without liability to the owners of the Walt Disney World® Resort.
I'm willing to bet you the cost of one day's worth of Gold QBot for a party of four that every amusement park in existence has a similar disclaimer somewhere if they offer POP tickets or annual/season passes.
That last bit, may otherwise change or be discontinued, means that if they want to close Space Mountain to anyone not staying in the Presidential Suite at the Grand Floridian, they can, and you lose with no refund.
Would they do this? Of course not. The Mouse understands that ticking off most guests is a bad move for the bottom line, which is why Disney park operations usually operate under the principle of "least inconvenience". For example, if you show up late for a fastpass, you can ride, because it would severely inconvenience you not to, but only marginally inconvenience others to allow you. As long as few people do this, the "total inconvenience" is low. If, tomorrow, everyone and their Uncle Joe realizes this and starts habitually showing up late, then operational policy will change, and they'll start enforcing the end times of windows.
Other parks get this notion of "least inconvenience" to different degrees, or choose to make different operational decisions in regards to it. But no park management that is even remotely competent would allow virtual queuing to "ruin" the experience for the majority of other guests, whatever that means.
Will a few zealots stop coming back because they are offended? Probably. They will more than be made up by people who appreciate the ability to sometimes avoid a really long line.
*** Edited 6/4/2005 3:14:45 PM UTC by Brian Noble***
-- alan jacyszyn
Kyle Says: Diamondback was a lot of fun! Made his first time at Kings Island worth it all!
You must be logged in to post
