Pay-to-cut: Not Fun For Everyone
Using SFGAdv as an example cause I go there and use one of the systems due to wanting to maximize my day. Here are the cold hard money numbers for a SF GAdv day. (will use 2 people per group as an example)
Admission to the park $96.00
Pay to "CUT" options
Q-Bot $60
Q-Bot Gold $120
VIP Tour Self $200.00
VIP Tour Guided $300.00
Ok now to cause the brain hemorages. I am going to explain here what the exact addition is for each cost.
Q-Bot = Reserved ride time at a wait time EQUAL to the current wait time of the line in place. This should not be affecting anyone else's experience for said ride since wait time is the same as if you stood in the line for the coaster you reserved. Notice I said coaster, these systems only work on certain rides. But also you may still have to wait for a few trains after your wait time is up if the ride has a set row or feed you into the station. And as I stated on my earlier post it does not always get you a seat choice other than where in the set row you sit.
Q-Bot Gold = As Q-Bot but reserved ride time at a wait time EQUAL to one quarter the current wait time of the line in place. Ok now this affects the wait time of who. Three-fourths of the current line.
VIP Self Guided = Exit pass good for 4 hours. Limited number available per day. Most must make reservations by calling the park.
VIP Guided = As VIP Self Guided with a park employee taking you around and up the exit paths. I will speculate a little here since I have never thought of doing this or seen it happening. Most likely the guide is also telling you some interesting stuff about the park and the rides.
Ok to answer RGB's question about the benefit of using versus not using I can do a semi analysis with Q-Bot gold since I used it 2 times last season at the park. I would say it definitely helped on rides like S:UF, B:TR, The Chiller but it doesn't help as much on Medusa and I will toss Nitro out of the equation.
Why do I say what I did? S:UF had a 2-3 hour wait all day I waited 30-45 Mins for each ride on it. You can choose seat since you join into the line at the station but you can't walk right up to the next train. B:TR again 2 hour wait I waited 30 Mins or so for a ride. On this you ride in a set row I beleive it was row 6 or 7. Chiller for a low capacity ride like this I think it is a must but I only do one lap on the coaster each day I go 2 hour 45 min line turned into a 40 min wait and a ride in a middle car since there are set seats for the program on this ride also. For Medusa I say it don't help because that line did not ever break 45 mins the days I was there. I think this coaster is hidden and also is a capacity monster so the line never makes a level where Q-Bot Gold would have benefited me those days. Now why Nitro gets thrown out of the equation. For 2 reasons line was about 30 mins all day on the days I went and that ride is a capacity monster when running 3 trains. A bunch of people late in the day started running 15 minute cycles using Q-Bot Gold and It got insane cause the ride was also close to 3 Train wait for non Q-Bot users. I believe this proved that you can not use Q-Bot to do less than a 15 minute wait. I think I got about 15 extra laps on coaster in the day. Hope that helps answer your question RGB. *** Edited 5/29/2005 2:38:10 PM UTC by dragonoffrost***
Lord Gonchar said:
I see a recurring theme of people who'd rather have a free system that allows anyone to cut in front of them rather than a pay system that works as a placeholder in line.
You can dress it up anyway that you want it.."Placeholding" is still line-cutting. Every park says that if you leave the line FOR ANY REASON, you may not return to your spot in the line. It is line-cutting any way that you slice it.
I am not shocked that the people that are against it here seem to be the ones that can't afford and the ones that can are for it.
I have read many people on this site talk about how parks are supposed to be a way to escape the realities of the world...yet they support the class system inside the park.
1. At the grocery store; a basket filled with groceries, frozen items, etc.; two kids by your side; only one line open, you’ve been waiting for 10 minutes – Another customer walks past you; approaches the cashier and says, “I’ll give you $10 bucks to go next.” The cashier accepts after management approval (manager gets a % of that $10). Customers behind you see this trend, offers $10, $15, etc. – A bidding war begins, but all of them go ahead of you. Your wait would’ve been 5 more minutes, but increased to a total of 35 minutes. Kids ask, “Why are they going ahead of us?” Your reply, “They have more money, and I have to spend my extra money on you.” Great lesson to teach our kids.
2. You’re at the movie theater, ready to see the big new movie you’ve anticipated for months; your money ready, your next to the counter – Another customer escorted by an employee is allowed in front of you; they had a reserved ticket, previously purchased online – it’s 5 minutes until show time, you’ve been waiting in line for 35 minutes (popular movie); more reserved customers are suddenly filing in front of you, getting tickets, and going in – the movie sells out, you can’t make the next show, because of all the reserved tickets. Everyone doesn’t have the ability to be online, but should they be punished for it?
It’s not an “I have more money than you issue” at all. It’s a matter of being treated equally in a place where equality should be most important, especially in public view. Every guest is “supposed” to feel as if the day at the park was “their day.” Directly showing a guest that someone is more important than you is not what Walt Disney’s vision was meant to do… and even 50 years later, some principles of human decency do not change. The enjoyment (i.e. guest experience) of every guest is still the most important principle behind amusement parks. Fail to provide enjoyment – fail at your business.
As for “front of line” access and treatment… it’s a matter of good business, yes, but the human factor is still more important. I’d like to meet the guy or girl who is “OK” with being treated as “secondary.” Obviously the GP is mostly quiet, because: 1. They don’t know it’s happening, or 2. If they know it’s happening, they’re usually too scared to actually say something to Guests Services, etc. if they even know they can comment there (side note: not giving their opinion is the person’s fault, not the park). The upset guest will find the first person to vent towards, and sometimes that’s not even an employee… it’s a family member. Most people/guests are afraid to have a voice.
If those who reserved their ride actually rode the thing instead of reserving it, they wouldn’t even be in line when it’s your turn… or they would, but waiting the same as you. That doesn’t seem fair?! How many times have you heard, “Hey, those people are waiting just like me.” You don’t, because it’s not an issue.
As a matter of fairness… anyone who says, “That’s life” in this situation is settling for things less than good and pleasant where “good and pleasant” should be experienced. Why then be surprised with the way things are at parks? You’re probably not and say “that’s life,” because you’ve settled. Life, and the experience of it, is a choice. Some things we can not choose or control. A day at the amusement park is far from that (except the occasional ride shut down). It was built for us to enjoy, therefore, we should be enjoying it.
Getting on a ride faster isn’t necessarily a better experience, considering waiting in line builds anticipation which increases the enjoyment of the ride experience. Waiting in line is sometimes an experience all on its own. You can meet interesting people, take in all the eye candy around you… not talking theme details, and hear some really funny or odd conversations (which can make you feel extremely smart… therefore, ego boost… added bonus). Switchbacks were designed for a reason… the social aspect.
A greater question is, Why are guests being rewarded for their impatience? Again, nothing to do with money. Free or paid for… it’s impatient. I’ll agree with RideMan, most parks are not balanced (hint: problem). I’ll also agree that many parks do not run at proper capacity for their varying attendance (hint: problem). More and more modern attractions don’t even consider its home park capacity and attendance numbers in the final design (hint: problem)… most likely due to design, cost or budgeting.
There is a certain “wait time” that parks want their guests to achieve with each attraction, so waiting is part of the experience. Your time in the park is calculated; therefore waiting is supposed to happen. Exploiting that “wait time” for profit is unfortunate. I also believe allowing another guest to get in front of you for any reason, other than those who are truly disabled and unable to function as most that wait in line, is wrong. It’s just plain wrong by humanity rules… not business rules.
Cont.
For anyone who agrees with any priority line access system, free or pay…
A. Ask your friends and family what they think about people going ahead of them, for free or for money, in everyday “line” waiting situations? (such as above: grocery store, movies, etc.)
B. Ask them how they fell about someone sitting on a shaded park bench for 1.5 hours, because that person got there 2 minutes before you, and you have to stand in the hot sun for 1.5 hours. (Luck of the draw can be an argument, but again, look at the reason amusement parks are built in the first place… it’s not luck of the draw. Parks are not lottery based systems.).
C. Ask at least 10 people… more if you can. Ask random strangers if you want. Ask the hundred or so people that you legally rode in front of. That’s when you’ll get real answers beyond your life experience. Parks are not built for just you being ok with priority access. Creating it and using it doesn’t make it right.
The amusement park is one of the few places where “escapism” truly could be experienced in our hectic, stressful world. That’s the point of parks. I understand technology is vitally important, but not at the cost of positive human emotion. Look at the core cause of the problem to fix it. You never solve a problem by creating another… happens all too often.
Any type of priority line access will be a problem. It’s been stated before, when more people “get it” lines will create lines will create lines, etc. You may be “ok” with it now, but when your “money” isn’t enough to get you ahead… how about then?
Try and not forget the “little” people. They are just as important and appreciate the parks more due to working hard in order to get there. Their experience, I bet, is truly the best reason why amusement parks are built. How long will it take for the decision makers to realize this? Attendance levels will peak at some point by nature or by fault. I’d go with nature. At least we’ll have the parks around who solves the problem at the beginning and understands its core reason for being. They will have typical park/growth problems, but they will survive.
Actions speak louder than words, and I’m working with actions (that’s why I’ve not provided solutions). I encourage all others to do the same for any interests, park or other. You get one, maybe two, chances to complain. After that, if you’re not helping… you’re part of the problem.
I’ve tried these priority line access systems in the past. I don’t use them. If I did, I’d be a hypocrite. I don’t want it “done” to me, so I will not do it to other people. They do not solve the problem. That’s what counts.
My opinion... I know it's long. I’m not asking anyone to agree, because one day when you become the “little people”, you won’t have an opinion.
The fact that the topic even comes up just shows that people are obviously worked up about it, and how can that be positive in any way to a park?
Of course, it will make *some* happier... but what % of people use fastlane/fastpass/etc. vs. those who don't?
-- alan jacyszyn *** Edited 5/29/2005 10:55:40 PM UTC by SFDL_Dude***
The store is located in Oceanside New York (Long Island). They also have the usual discount coupons with three offers: 1) Save 20 dollars weekdays or 10 dollars weekends [Up to four admissions] 2) Save 4 bucks on Hurricane Harbor [Up to four admissions] 3) Everyone pays kids price [expired May 8th]
I thought this would be interesting to post here.
Here's To Shorter Lines & Longer Trip Reports!
kfconcepts said:
A. Ask your friends and family what they think about people going ahead of them, for free or for money, in everyday “line” waiting situations? (such as above: grocery store, movies, etc.)
This truely is apples and oranges. I don't go to the grocery store for entertainment. But, if someone paid the store to jump ahead of me, due to a system like FastPass, etc., I still wouldn't care. I just asked 4 people at the hospital I work with the same question, and only one of them felt the way you do, that it wasn't right.
Plus, everything you are talking about is just someone cutting in line. It doesn't matter if it is at the movies, a store, or a park, if someone takes it upon themselves to cut the line, they'll deal with me. Trust me, I always win when I cause a scene. But this is still totally different. Everyone has the opportunity to pay for this system or get there early and take advantage of it. It is all based on cost and arrival time. Plus, it is not against any park rules, nor is it against common courtesy. You pay for better treatment in anything. Why can't some of you whiners understand that?
B. Ask them how they fell about someone sitting on a shaded park bench for 1.5 hours, because that person got there 2 minutes before you, and you have to stand in the hot sun for 1.5 hours. (Luck of the draw can be an argument, but again, look at the reason amusement parks are built in the first place… it’s not luck of the draw. Parks are not lottery based systems.).
No, a park isn't a lottery based system. Its first come, first served, unless you PAY to cut the line. Again, if you ever ran a business, you'd understand. I have a feeling that none of the people complaining have ever owned nor ran their own business and had to live off of it.
C. Ask at least 10 people… more if you can. Ask random strangers if you want. Ask the hundred or so people that you legally rode in front of. That’s when you’ll get real answers beyond your life experience. Parks are not built for just you being ok with priority access. Creating it and using it doesn’t make it right.
Again, I'll use this: Being able to afford to go to a park when someone else is poor and can't doesn't make that 'right' either. But welcome a little place I like to call Life. If this is the only problem you have, that you can go to an amusment park in the first place, because that is your priority and that is where you want to put your ca$h, then tell me this-why aren't you paying for underprivledged families to go with you? Do you think its fair that they have to sit at home while you enjoy your day at a park? They can't afford to go, so they stay at home. Just because you can afford to go, do you feel bad for them every time you go to a park? Guess what, the people that pay to cut in line don't feel bad for you, and neither do I.
The amusement park is one of the few places where “escapism” truly could be experienced in our hectic, stressful world. That’s the point of parks.
No, the point of any business, park, store, movies, etc, is to make money. If they can do that by selling you 'escapism', then they're selling a good product. If they can do it by selling someone else a little more 'escapism', then good for them. The first priority of any business, including these parks, which I so often see people trying to claim are some holy place to go because they're so pure, is to make money. The best way they do that is to give you what you think you want, and then offer you what you really want. Its up to you if you can afford it or justify the cost.
I understand technology is vitally important, but not at the cost of positive human emotion. Look at the core cause of the problem to fix it. You never solve a problem by creating another… happens all too often.
What problem are they creating? How many people, and this is something I want you to go around and ask, have stopped going to a park because they have a pay to cut system? I'm interested in hearing the answer here.
Any type of priority line access will be a problem. It’s been stated before, when more people “get it” lines will create lines will create lines, etc. You may be “ok” with it now, but when your “money” isn’t enough to get you ahead… how about then?
But by going to a park, my money is always enough to get me 'ahead'. Every system is set up to either be limited so that it doesn't create a situation where someone didn't get to ride because they didn't pay to get in a shorter line, or it sets up a time to return. You really think these companies implement these things without professionals that know a heck of a lot more about the situation than your or I? If so, that is foolish.
Try and not forget the “little” people. They are just as important and appreciate the parks more due to working hard in order to get there.
I challenge you to do the same. Next time you go to a park, don't forget all the 'little' people that can't afford to go at all, or have never been in the first place. I think you should go out and survey people that can't afford to go, by asking them how fair it is that you can.
Their experience, I bet, is truly the best reason why amusement parks are built.
Again, parks are built to make money, plain and simple. If they want to make money, they offer a good experience. If they want to make a lot of money, they offer a great experience (and include priority access), if they want to get rich, they'll offer a one of a kind experience along with exclusive access.
How long will it take for the decision makers to realize this? Attendance levels will peak at some point by nature or by fault. I’d go with nature. At least we’ll have the parks around who solves the problem at the beginning and understands its core reason for being. They will have typical park/growth problems, but they will survive.
Again, parks employ people to analize and staticize these things. They do know what they're doing, at least in this regard.
Actions speak louder than words, and I’m working with actions (that’s why I’ve not provided solutions). I encourage all others to do the same for any interests, park or other. You get one, maybe two, chances to complain. After that, if you’re not helping… you’re part of the problem.
This is an amusment park. If you're so affected by this, I think you need to find another way to escape. But you are right, actions speak very loud. Thats why people are listening by paying for something they want, due to an action the parks have taken.
I’ve tried these priority line access systems in the past. I don’t use them. If I did, I’d be a hypocrite. I don’t want it “done” to me, so I will not do it to other people.
I agree with you there. If you don't like it, don't do it. But plenty of other people have kept this type of system in busness so far, I don't see that changing.
They do not solve the problem. That’s what counts. My opinion... I know it's long. I’m not asking anyone to agree, because one day when you become the “little people”, you won’t have an opinion.
Again, I still see no problem. And coming from a family whose parents did own their own business, I don't have a problem with it. Also, coming from a family that owned their own business, we were often unable to go to theme parks. Some years we didn't go on any vacation. I was more worried then, just as I am now, with actually getting the chance to go, instead of worrying about who can afford to go and skip lines and stay in a 5 star hotel and eat more expensive food. I was just happy to be there. I guess thats why I'm the same way now that I can afford to go to parks more often.
I'm sure the number crunchers know this better than I though...
NOTE: Severe fecal impaction may render the above words highly debatable.
Life is something that happens when you can't get to sleep.
--Fran Lebowitz
Of course, there's no point in granting you that access if you have no money to spend and are going to be staring at your feet, kicking rocks at fence posts or mugging old ladies with all that spare time. Soooo, charging you for it makes perfect sense. It doesn't cost much if you're the sort of person they're looking to extend the privilege to.
See how that works? (In theory, anyway...)
-'Playa
*** Edited 5/30/2005 5:16:28 PM UTC by CoastaPlaya***
NOTE: Severe fecal impaction may render the above words highly debatable.
On the other hand, it can't possibly be cedar point's rationale, because so little of the ride's capacity is devoted for freeway---10%, IIRC. Compare that to the 50% or even 70% of capacity reserved for fastpass on some attractions, and, well, you get the idea.
Prediction: Disney will work hard to maintain the *illusion* that the playing field is level in their parks. In other words, fastpass machines won't be leaving the parks, and all guests will have the opportunity to pre-fetch a few fastpasses, but guests at, say, concierge-level rooms in their deluxe properties will get much better treatment.
Even now, the Disney playing field is not level. I gladly paid the equivalent of a signle day's admission just to have a reserved seat for Fantasmic at Disneyland, because I'm not a big fan of sitting on the banks of the Rivers of America for two hours to get a seat. (Well, my $45 also bought me a very nice dessert buffet and a hot cup of that nescafe crap that Disney calls coffee, but still.) I also gladly sprang for a full sit-down meal (which ran me about $35 pp) in exchange for a similar priviledge at MGM Studios' Fantasmic. I haven't done it yet, but concierge guests, and *only* concierge guests, can book a special behind-the-scenes safari experience at Animal Kingdom.
We'll see how wonderful a thing people think it is once they get outbid and outpriced.
RGB, who could probably afford a lot of things but prefers the things that money just can't buy.
This spring break I took the Disney Vacation Club tour. It was less than 45 minutes total. In return I got 8 total (4 for me and 4 for the wife) unrestricted fastpasses. Hundreds more did this every day. These passes can be put in the machine and will give instant access to the ride of choice (ie it prints a ticket for the current time frame of return). You walk up---print the fastpass---you ride then and there---no hoops...
If this is not good old fashioned line cutting, I'm not sure what to call it. This type of fastpass is already in circulation if you stay at certain priced packages and/or participate in the vacation club tours. The GP would never know the difference as they cannot tell a legitimate fastpass from the special fastpasses. This is the genius of this system or the EVIL depending on where you are coming from. Anyhow, do not think Disney's system is fair in the sense of first come first serve. There are many creative ways to "cheat" the system if you spend the time and/or money to do so...
Do you know why lines form?
Lines form because people are able to arrive at the ride faster than they can be taken on board the ride. People can enter the queue at 2,400 PPH, but the ride can only take them away at 1,600 PPH. In an hour, 800 people who enter the queue have to wait.
Now let's say we allow 10% of the ride's capacity to be virtual queue people. That means each hour we can take 1,440 people from the main queue and 160 people from the virtual queue. What that means is that we just made the line longer! Now after the first hour, instead of 800 people (half-hour wait) waiting in the queue, there are now 960 people waiting in the queue, which would be a 36-minute wait. Except that with the reduced capacity from the main queue, instead of a 36-minute wait, it is now a 40-minute wait.
The reason this happened is that by adding the virtual queue system, we added no capacity to the ride, but we made it possible for more people to get in line, because there are now effectively two queue entrances. Forget about the fairness arguments...if you make the system "fair" (such as the Disney, Cedar Point, or Q-Bot standard systems) then you have just come up with a system that causes EVERYONE...INCLUDING the virtual queue people...to have to wait LONGER for the ride!
Now I ask you...what is the sense in that?
What ever happened to running rides at capacity and letting the crowds take care of themselves?
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
I agree with you, Dave, in a perfect world, we wouldn't need fastpast/fastlane or a queue period. Everyone would just get out of my way when I got in line and let me ahead ;).
I am afraid that with no response parks will choose the system that makes them the most money.
And rightfully so. I still don't understand why people can't see that a park is not some holy, not for profit, we only wanna make people happy kinda place. A park is there to make cash. If these systems didn't work (in regards to making them money), then they wouldn't have been around so long now. Just like was said, if someone isn't in an actual line waiting, they're spending money on food, merch., locker rentals, PPE rides, etc.
Its so funny, because not too long ago, I was bored at work, and was thinking that, if I were to own a major theme park company, I would implement a system much like Disney is doing. Offer the free queue upgrade to everyone with restrictions. But the higher you are on the Park's Customer Heirarchy, the better treatment you get.
Did you pay for a V.I.P. pass? You get unlimited opportunities to get a shorter line. Are you staying on site? You get a little more. Are you staying at a top tier hotel on site? You get your butt kissed with golden lips (or at least that is how we make you feel), and your money's worth of park time. I'm seriously shocked Disney didn't come up with this sooner, and wonder if I should get a lawyer because they stole my idea :).
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