Pay-to-cut: Not Fun For Everyone

You do realize that *in theory* those people aren't cutting in front of you.

FastLane makes you wait roughly as long as the line for a given ride currently is.

If you enter the queue of a ride the same moment I use my Q-Bot to get a reserved time - we will both ride at approximately the same time as if I had stood in line beside you the whole time.

It's not pay to cut with the basic Q-Bot, it's pay to hold your place in line while you do other things. If anything it's people in line for other rides that should be mad because now I can go stand in those lines while waiting for my ride time at the first ride.

What's really funny is that you keep endorsing freebies like FastPass. Those are the systems that truly use a random 'first come first serve' system of dumb luck to let people literally cut in line. The Q-Bot lets people pay to hold their place in a line.

. *** Edited 5/28/2005 3:10:25 PM UTC by Lord Gonchar***

I have a different take. I agree with Jeff's comments about capacity. However, I think the use of these systems (fastpass, etc) is unnecessary and a waste of time. The park should raise prices for admission to the park as the means of adjusting crowd control. I think most of these parks are way under-priced in the current market. Simple supply and demand economics in admission pricing would serve to regulate crowd control.

Under my system there is no need for additional measures at individual rides for tiered placement systems. This lessons the probabilities of offending guests, who for better or worse, do not like to see ANYBODY cutting line whether systemically endorsed or not. It seems like these tiered systems are more trouble than they are worth in terms of PR.

I can only assume that the number crunchers have done the math and do not think my simple idea/opinion is as profitable as the inherently frustrating systems we see today.

As if you stood in line, but you did not. A million other things I'd rather be doing rather stand in line for 3 hours. Taxes, scrub floors, sit on a bench for two minutes- not an option. Hundreds of FastLaners with their Q-Bots skipped the line, got into a seat of their choosing without missing a beat. Lots of ways to phrase it to make it more palitable, the result is the same.

I get the sense those of you for the pay-to-cut service don’t mind give if it negatively impacts everyone else. If it means less people will want to goto park because it will be less fun for them so be it; less people at parks. There is a simple solution to this and that would be Double-Admissions-Day. Same price as FastLane tagged on to admissions, can have the whole park to your selves. Then on regular admissions day the rest of us don’t have to watch all of you cut to the front doubling our wait for the same ride. I may even decide to try Double-Admissions-Day myself. However, I have never, will never pay to cut in front of someone.

Interestingly no one has said anything that negative about FastPass. The only advantage parks see in FastLane is that it makes money for them. Given the choice why encourage parks to make pay-to-cut systems the standard?

Memorial weekend and its crappy weather in the Northeast.

I don't see how the XM radio example applies here. Those who want to pay for that premium service get it, fine. But I can still turn on my old regular car radio and get "plain" old radio stations, which is fine too. I don't get told, "sorry, those other people who paid for the premium service are tying up the airwaves, so you get to listen to static for a few hours."

True, those people using the FastLane services pay more and get on more rides than the non-paying people. Maybe what someone should do is figure out a comparison of cost per ride for using and not using the service. See if the people paying the premium really are faring better.

And something deep down just irks me about the suggestion that the way to reduce crowds is to raise the price of everything so only those more financially better off can afford them. Then I guess the "poor" guys could just sneak through the parking lots vandalizing your fancy cars with the premium radio systems for entertainment.

With the XM example, the alternative isn't static... its commercials.

Back on topic. The people who are against these kinds of systems, would you use one if it was given to you for free? If you didn't have to pay for Q-Bot would you use it? Last year at the Coasterbuzz Con @ SFGAm, did you use the FastPasses given to us?

I take advantage of them if they are useful fo rme, but I still think they are "wrong" -- it's not going to stop the park, or me from utilizing it, if they have it... i am mostly referring to CP's stamp system, i'm not going to "not" get one to protest, even though I think it hurts the park...

I have never payed for a fastlane, and I think [i have no data -- it would be an interesting survey for parks to make] the guest perception of everybody *in line* is "look, they arn't waiting like us" and in turn, lots of people become dis-satisfied (the ones NOT using it) and the park doesn't look as good to the standard customer.

The "waiting in line the same time", i believe fastpass and q-bot supposedly do this, but isn't there an even bigger upgrade to cut ahead of the line w/o any wait? the GOLD option? I remmber something like this at SFNE in the past, I do not know about recently...

I know SFMM had a method of "cut in line to pay" and I *think* they still use this, and not the q-bot system, but I do not know for sure. Again, people are not waiting in line the same time.

Just some random thoughts.

-- alan jacyszyn

---

rc-madness said:
Not everyone has the extra $35 to pay on top of park admissions. quote]

The argument that such systems are unfair always seem a bit, well, hypocritical to me. There are many people, many families, that don't have the money to buy park admission in the first place. Those who are so concerned by parks finding a profit source in providing a shorter wait time don't seem to have any problem treating themselves to the park itself.

You want to get into the park; the park sets an admission price. If you think the value is acceptable, you pony up. If not, you take your dollars elsewhere. You want to wait in as short a line as possible; the park sets a price to provide a shorter wait time. If you think the value is acceptable, you pony up.

---

What's key to all this is that my wait for the same attraction gets longer, doubles in time, as folks pay to cut in front of me. Separate lines that don't affect my wait, don't effect me then I couldn't care less what short cuts you pay for. And if Q-Bots were free, again no problem. Equal opportunity and the park does not profit from the long lines. It is a small detail that changes the hospitible environment of the park. Ten years from now we'll all be paying $60 to avoid park designed three hour long waits, or so many will cut to the front that it will stall lines completely. That way poor folks will stay couped-up in stalled out lines while Q-Botters bounce back and forth between attractions. I just hope Ceder Point holds out, and holds on to FastPass as long as they can, most of us will end up having a much better time. *** Edited 5/29/2005 12:58:35 AM UTC by rc-madness***

Dude, as much as you choose to ignore the facts, it doesn't change things. Those people were not cutting in line. They were there before you, activated their Q-bot and walked away with a wait time equivalent to as if they had stood in that line.

There is no difference in how long you waited regardless of whether those folks physically stood there or virtually did.

The only argument that it may make lines longer is if they now use that time to stand in another line.

Bottom line, the people you see going up the exit and getting on were already in line...just virtually, not physically.

I really don't think it's that hard to grasp.

As far as the 'free' systems like CP's Freeway and Disney's FastPass - those people ARE cutting in line. The times are handed out at random without knowing what the line may or may not be at the time assigned. No one is virtually waiting for anything. It is simply a reservation to ride at a certain time. When that time comes, those folks are allowed to cut towards (or to) the front of the stand-by line and ride.

Big difference to me. The free systems offer random people a random chance to cut into the line. The pay systems reserve your spot in line based on when you arrived and how long the wait for the ride is when you arrive.

*** Edited 5/29/2005 12:56:21 AM UTC by Lord Gonchar***

---

RatherGoodBear said:
I don't see how the XM radio example applies here. Those who want to pay for that premium service get it, fine. But I can still turn on my old regular car radio and get "plain" old radio stations, which is fine too. I don't get told, "sorry, those other people who paid for the premium service are tying up the airwaves, so you get to listen to static for a few hours."

---

The example applies here that XM is a premium service that not all can afford it or are willing to spend the money for it. if you don't want it, you can still listen to "old radio" and deal with the commercials and such. Now let look at things in a direct comparision. When it comes to ridding coasters at a Six Flags parks, you have three options. The first is not paying anything (no radio) and thus you don't get to ride (hey, isn't even going to the parks unfair to those who can't afford it???). The next option is pay for just the basics ("old radio") and you wait in lines with nearly everyone else. Finially we have pay for the fastpass (XM-radio) and not have to stand inline (note: not cutting as Lord Gonchar has made this clear...several times). If you pay more, you get more, simple as that...its how life works.

Now why we are on this topic, why isn't anyone complaining about some of the tickets that you can get at several parks that completly let you skip all of the lines (universal and disney, and I'm sure if you give parks enough money any park would do this)? This is cutting all lines, and you can ride whenever you want. Or the Universal express for universal resort guests where you can skip all lines, whenever you want. Isn't this unfair to the poor guest who have to stay in the Motel 6 down the road and has to wait in lines?

I say that all of you anti-line skip people to get over it. The programs arn't going anywhere, if anything, they will become more popular. But if parks are making the lines longer (as to what I think the orginal complaint was more about) so you are forced to buy a fastpass to ride anything, then thats a differnt story. Parks shouldn't be making the lines longer on purpose under any conditions. I feel that you can complain about that. *** Edited 5/29/2005 2:00:15 AM UTC by Mark Burleson***

If someone wants to pay money to not wait in line thats all good. The problem is when a park has incentive to cut down operation to make lines longer. many of the six flags parks give the impresion that this is whats going on. Last year i went to sfmm on a tuseday and of the 16 coasters they have only scream had more then 1 train running. Even the older less popular coasters had more than a 2 hour wait, and this was a tuesday in october! I live in nor. cal. so I visit marine world quite often and it is very rare that any coaster besides medusa has more then 1 train running. its fine to offer premium services but a park should still do everything in thier power to make sure anyone who spends some $50 to get in has a good time. As it stands now you can pay $50 to ride maybe 3 rides in a full day or pay $90 and enjoy a few more. I think a lot of people are not happy with ethier option and thats why the parks are now losing money. they made some money off of fast lane but I belive the will lose a lot more from lack of future customers

I don't know why, but I have always disliked the whole fastpass, q-bot, fastlane, etc. systems altogether. No matter how you look at it, the people waiting in the regular line can and most likely will have a longer wait because of the people who "cut" in the line. Every ride has a given capacity(excluding breakdowns, weather, etc.), which directly affects the speed of the line. Those who enter the queue at a farther point cause the line to move more slowly for the people who are behind the point at which they enter. And in Cedar Point's case, the point at which the "cutters" enter is sometimes a few hours ahead of the people in the regular line.

Isn't this unfair to the poor guest who have to stay in the Motel 6 down the road and has to wait in lines?

I know you weren't saying that is how you feel, but the way I would respond to that is:

Same thing. If I have enough money to stay at a nicer resort, which may also offer me the ability to skip lines, how is that bad? Just because someone stays at Motel 6 doesn't mean they are less of a person, they just have to wait in line while I don't.

If this is the only thing that ruins your day at a park, I say be glad you got to go to the park in the first place. There are plenty of kids in America that can't even eat because their parents can't afford it, but you're complaining because of a longer line at an amusment park?

I like the Fastpass system at CP because it is free and anyone can get it if they are in line early, so I have no problem with the Fastpass. Q-Bot is a different story because you pay an extra $35 to cut which is rediculous because many families can barely afford to get in let alone to buff up some extra dough so they can ride all the rides the same day. Many times at SF parks it feels like they run only one or 2 trains to make the lines long so people will buy the Q-Bot.

Regarding Fastpass and how it let you "cut" in line, I'll give the example of Test Track.

When's the last time you had to wait 8 hours for a ride? That's what you get on a busy day when you take a fast pass at say, 10 am at Test Track with a return time of... 6-7 pm. If you decided to bite the bullet, you could wait in a line 90 minutes and ride or wait 30 minutes in the single riders line, which would involve splitting your party up.

...many families can barely afford to get in...

And somehow I doubt very seriously they're complaining about Q-bots and the like, and instead are just happy to be there.

Never heard the GP say anything negative about the systems. Must be that 'I'm an enthusiast' mentality.

I see a recurring theme of people who'd rather have a free system that allows anyone to cut in front of them rather than a pay system that works as a placeholder in line.

Which, oddly enough, is the exact opposite of what I find fair and unfair to those in line.

To flip the coin yet again, free systems like Freeway and FastPass won't be available to me if I show up a few hours after opening (or after the daily distribution of tickets or handstamps begins) because all the freeebies will have been taken, but with the pay system, I can show up whenever I like and still be able to participate the same as someone who was at the gate first thing in the morning.

Hate to sound like a broken record, but no matter what angle I look at it from the pay system Six Flags uses is much more fair than any free system in place. It's available to all guests without exception and (with the basic level of service) never lets anyone slow down the line for a given ride by randomly shuffling them in front of other guests.

If the basic Q-Bot pisses you off, you better not read up the Gold Q-Bot or the V.I.P. tours available at many parks or heart failure may follow. ;)

But Gonch, the difference is that they have to pay for the pay systems, and that isn't fair. Don't you get it?!?

Gonch,

You just gave a good reason for the unfairness of the free systems as well. To me free or pay, they both seem wrong.

Isn't there a way to limit the amount of cut passes to be distributed only as ride capacity allows? That way you aren't giving passes to come back in 6 hours? They could only give out a certain number of passes each hour.

I mostly have a problem with a cut system because no one's been able to figure out how to do it right yet. It's just a stupid idea.

OUCH! My brain! Thas stuff is WAY to complicated for the average person to figure out, and therefor people will complain because they don't understand it...Like me. I guess I should just take someones elses word that it really IS fair to me.

About the XM radio comparison, I have a used car. I'm afraid of it breaking down when I drive to parks. I'll pass on the satilite radio.

About just being happy that I got to visit a park and the poor people who live right next door to me can't afford it, I usuially skip on paying my bills and eat only balongna sandwiches for a month just so I can visit a park. So yes, I guess you are right; I SHOULD be happy that I got to go. My bad.

About concerts, yes if you pay more you should get a spot closer to the stage. That spot is already there and someone has to get it, so why not charge a higher price for it? BUT a spot in line for a coaster is a little different. A line moves, as opposed to seating arrangements at a show. Everyone is going to get a chance to be near the front of a line, regardless of how much they have paid.

Okay, I'm done rambling on.

edited for late night spelling errors *** Edited 5/29/2005 8:11:24 AM UTC by dexter***

TeknoScorpion, I have had plenty of conversations and have overheard plenty of people in line upset with the qbot system. Especially on the rides that is poorly implemented like the Batman inverts. People tend to get upset when they are next in line to ride and someone takes their seat from the exit ramp.

This is not just an enthusiast thing, I bet you could talk to anyone at a Six Flags customer service booth and find that out.