Wednesday, August 6, 2003 9:16 AM
Search didn't provide a good argument about these things, at least not a recent one, so I have a question. It's been 2 years since Premier successfully did away with them, so why are they still needed?

The recent Chiller saddle, valley, whatever...left at least 3 cars inverted proving you don't have to have Schwarzkopf G's to keep you in your seat. You ain't gonna fall out if the restraint's in place!

I can see where a violent change in direction might hurt your neck, so maybe that's why Beemers have tall restraints? Before the screaming starts, consider that head-banging occurs when your bodies momentum carries it in the opposite direction of the train more rapidly or forcefully than you are able to react, and you smack that "neck brace", sometimes hard enough to cause bruising or bleeding. Whiplash happens when your body stops quicker than your head, so a restraint that immobilizes your body could do some damage too. Now if you've ridden a spaghetti bowl like Poltergiest (with lap bars) you know you go through some extremely violent directional changes. Maybe the freedom of movement has a shock-absorbing effect, allowing your body to react to the forces on-its-own terms. Could Lap-Bars be safer than OTSR's?

I admit that leg restraints an a floorless or invert would be kinda stupid, but there are plenty of sit down, feet on the floor, looping, corkscrew twisting, cobra rollers that would certainly benifit from loosing the shoulder harnesses.

My appologies for the rambling; it seems I have too much time on my hands.

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Wednesday, August 6, 2003 9:37 AM
I understand your point. My only thought is that it may be the liability insurance. The insurance company may charge a LOT more to cover a park with a coaster with inversions that has no OTSRs out of some actuarial point of view that believes that OTSRs are safer than a lap bar, even if it's not so. This is not as far-fetched as it seems; I work for a dental insurance company, and I can tell you that a procedure that is considered safe and standard practice by dentists and the public may still not be covered by the company because the actuaries base their statistics on old studies.

If the insurance is the thing, parks would probably opt for the "one-time" cost of OTSRs rather than paying even more exhorbitant insurance rates on a perennial basis.

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--
Harry Baer IV

"Do you think it was a bear?"
"A bear? Bears are sweet! Besides, you ever seen a bear with 40 foot feet?"

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Wednesday, August 6, 2003 9:42 AM
I agree with you 100%. Once Premier proved that lapbars could be designed to keep riders in their seats through any inversion, I was hoping that many new multi-inversion coasters were going to have trains without OTSRs. Nothing beats freedom of movement of your upper body on a coaster.

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-Mike B.
Son of Hulk
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Wednesday, August 6, 2003 10:40 AM
Now that I've ridden both Poltergeist and Mr. Freeze before and after lap bars were installed, I'm not sure what to think about doing away with OTSRs. I know the Premier rides were brutal headbangers with them, but I've found my upper body getting tossed around a little too much without them.

This past Sunday, I got goosenecked on SFOT's Mr. Freeze going backwards out of the spike, and into the overbank. The g's in the pullout combined with the quick change in direction caused my head to sink down, and my neck to bend backwards. Not comfortable! I've had soreness in my back and neck muscles the past few days.

In that instance, the OTSRs probably would've kept my shoulders from leaning forward in the pullout. Of course, they also would've boxed my ears in the overbank and top hat. I just don't know if the Premier rides were designed to provide a smooth ride with or without lap bars. The transitions are too quick, and it doesn't seem as if the track was designed around the rider heartline.

What I'd love to see is a compromise - an OTSR that was completely soft, like a life vest, but had some sort of locking mechanism. Don't the Vekoma flyers have something like that?

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Come on fhqwhgads!

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Wednesday, August 6, 2003 10:59 AM
Not sure about Vekomas, but B&Ms do. In fact I found that out last night!

I was riding S:UF. They have a vest for stomach support. You can pull it out pretty far when restraints are unlocked. But the vests lock when the restraints are locked.The restraint is kind of like an OTSR and lap bar. I want to see more of them.

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Flour nil mice men
Rearrange that and you get...
Millenium Force!

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Wednesday, August 6, 2003 11:05 AM
Yeah those Vests are awesome no head banging and there comfortable and the keep you in and safe from falling out. I would like to see more vests on other coasters not just on Flying coasters.

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http://groups.msn.com/kylecoasterworld

105 DEMON RIDES IN 2003 so far hahaha

"THE DEMON HES GONNA GET YA"

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Wednesday, August 6, 2003 11:50 AM
I remember seeing a picture of Shaft of Doom before they changed the lap bars to OTSRs and thinking: "no way"! Perhaps the OTSRs just provide riders with greater PERCEIVED sense of security and lapbars give a greater PERCEIVED sense of vulnerability.

It seems unlikely that parks would opt for OTSRs because they were any better at preventing people from falling out :-) I'd imagine that it is more to do with the distribution of forces under braking and during elements that involve sudden reductions in the train's velocity. Think about being thrown forward under braking: if you have a lapbar, your gut takes the impact. If you have a OTSR the force is distributed across a larger surface area i.e. your chest and shoulders.

The solution to any discomfort is either 1) To increase the surface area of the lapbar e.g. as with TTD and Millenium Force or 2) Just pad out the OTSRs! :-)

Personally, I don't mind which a coaster uses.

Regards.
*** This post was edited by BeyondOblivion 8/6/2003 3:52:48 PM ***

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Wednesday, August 6, 2003 12:09 PM
It's actually not a bad idea to use the vest and a lapbar. The only problem I see would be bad capacity. Having to get into both, check them, and then unload. It'd get pretty bad. SOME crews might be able to pull it off, but not many.

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www.coasterinsomniacs.com

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Wednesday, August 6, 2003 2:08 PM
Lawyers who've never ridden coasters probably think that OTSRs are safer. Just look at Disney's lawyers who wanted OTSRs on Splash Mountain.

I've witnessed people injured by OTSRs. I've never witnessed someone injured by the lack of them. While I have little faith in his pseudo-data, I have noticed that coasters with OTSRs figure prominently in Ed Markey's list of coasters that have supposedly caused brain injuries. This may simply be because of the headaches that people have when they get off whether they have a brain injury or not.

They are only tolerable on really well profiled coasters with smooth transitions.

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Wednesday, August 6, 2003 2:12 PM
The vests on the vekoma flyers aren't all that comfortable,probably due to the fact that you're suspended with all of your body weight pressed into them during the ride,the vests on Stealth look a bit more pliant & comfortable than the rubber ones used on Batwing & X-Flight though..

It may work wonders on an inverted or looping coaster though because you wouldn't have anything hard to bang your head against,with premiere's lap bar conversion it's just as violent on your upper body in terms of the G's pulling you sideways,the only difference is now your head is free to move much more & that could cause neck injuries or whiplash.

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Wednesday, August 6, 2003 2:26 PM

The solution to any discomfort is either 1) To increase the surface area of the lapbar e.g. as with TTD and Millenium Force or 2) Just pad out the OTSRs! :-)

Personally, I don't mind which a coaster uses.


Word. . . . .Thick lapbars are the best way to prevent upper body movement.

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-Tomas

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Wednesday, August 6, 2003 2:33 PM
I don't know, I geta lot more airtime and free feeling on Vortex at PKI then I do on Sonny. Granted the Premier Steely restraints and Schwarzkopf restraints are much different in feel, but only lapbars it not always a good thing.

OTSR's actually give you room to "float" which is one reason I am so excited about Hershey's new coaster, Finally a Rocket where you will definitely be WAY out of your seat. This is of course unless we see a Schwarzkopf lapbar where you are not held in at all.

I think Intamin's lapbar is totally fine, but only if used coreectly, I have had plenty of room on SFA's S:ROS before and I woudln't want to do any inverting then.

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If given the choice I'd choose a hamburger over a hotdog anyday of the week.

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Wednesday, August 6, 2003 4:17 PM

BeyondOblivion said:
I remember seeing a picture of Shaft of Doom before they changed the lap bars to OTSRs and thinking: "no way"! Perhaps the OTSRs just provide riders with greater PERCEIVED sense of security and lapbars give a greater PERCEIVED sense of vulnerability.

Yes, I have a friend who is that way. He insists that he feels safer with the OTSR, and gets very nervious about riding a looper without them. Heck, he was even nervious about TTD not having them. I tell him there is nothing to fear, and knows that, but it still is unnerving to him.

I am all for lapbars, beats head banging any day, but I am not sure the GP feels the same way.

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Ask yourself; When was the last time YOU visited Conneaut Lake Park?

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Wednesday, August 6, 2003 7:58 PM
So people would be scared if the coaster had only lap bars...

And this is a bad thing...why?

Have we forgotten that roller coasters ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SCARY?

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

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Wednesday, August 6, 2003 8:05 PM
Schwarzkopf has been using lap bars on looping coasters for how long now?

This isnt anything new when it comes to this concept. Maybe its new in inversions that are corkscrews but as far as a regular looping coaster that have straight inversions, its been around for years.

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Arena football has arrived in the Windy City. Go "Chicago Rush"
*** This post was edited by Chitown 8/7/2003 12:06:15 AM ***

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Wednesday, August 6, 2003 10:42 PM

Chitown said:
Schwarzkopf has been using lap bars on looping coasters for how long now?

I just hope Hershey never puts OTSRs on SDL. SFMM killed revolution with them. SDL's loop is one of my favorite inversions on any coaster just because of the G's and the freedom to feel them.

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Wednesday, August 6, 2003 10:54 PM
SFMM didn't kill revolution by adding otsr, they killed it by trim braking it to almost stops when it finally picks up pace. If you listen and keep your head back there isn't much headbanging. I'ma strong beleiver in both! and I'm going to say this: stop *****ing about rides that don't need lapbars, because if they are already smooth and have no headbanging then why add lapbars, common it will cost the park or place at least $250,000 to replace them. I rode Mr. Freeze @SFSL before and after the lapbars and it needed them, now it is actually a good ride. But Speed: The Ride the one of the only if not the only premeir coaster not to get the lapbars just plain does not need it. Granted it would be a bit more fun, but it is not NEEDED.
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Wednesday, August 6, 2003 11:16 PM
If a OTSR coaster is smooth with no headbanging I agree to keep it as is and do not switch to lapbars. However if an OTSR coaster is rough with headbanging switching to lapbars may not be a bad idea.

I feel there is little/no reason for any coaster to go from lapbars to OTSRs.

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Thursday, August 7, 2003 12:00 AM

coasterkid16 said:
SFMM didn't kill revolution by adding otsr, they killed it by trim braking it to almost stops when it finally picks up pace. If you listen and keep your head back there isn't much headbanging.

What Revolution did you ride? That thing is PACKED with headbanging. The trims make it not *quite* as bad, but that puppy still hurts.

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-Parker
www.SFMWZone.com

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Thursday, August 7, 2003 4:46 AM
Revolution is extremely painful - there is no good way to ride it. But on topic, I have felt ever since my first ride on X-Flight and now experiencing Stealth this summer too, that the restraints on those rides are what should replace the OTSR. It might be a bit more cumbersome, and restrict your airtime more, but if a park feels that lapbars are not sufficient due to aesthetics (or whatever you want to call it) or the perfectly understandable insurance coverage, then I think that Vekoma has provided the industry with one of its greatest gifts if the others would just catch on ...

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Give me launched or give me ... uh ... more launched!!
--Brett

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