Since Premier has been replacing their old trains, many people has asked: Why can't they do this with old Arrow/Vekoma coasters? Why can't the revitalize once great coasters with comfortable lap bars? The general answer so far is that since Arrow/Vekoma didn't design their coasters to have their wheels in constant contact with the track, new trains would cause more friction than would allow the trains to complete the circuit. Constant contact = more friction = slower trains.
I realize that constant contact with the track would cause more friction, but would it really be enough to keep the train from completeing the circuit? Also, if this is the case, how could this problem be fixed, in case I park really wanted to retro-fit their ride?
EXAMPLE: 10 years from now, ridership on Magnum XL 200 at Cedar Point has dropped down to extremely low numbers. If nothing is done to the horribly rough ride, Cedar Point would be forced to tear it down and replace Magnum with another ride. However, Cedar Point doesn't want to destroy the first hyper coaster, and they don't want to have to re-build it ( Phantom's Revenge ) It seems that new trains could fix the problem and restore Magnum to it's original glory. What would desginers have to do in order to make this a reality?
Disclaimer: I'm am in no way saying that Magnum XL 200 at Cedar Point needs, or is going to get new trains. I simply used Magnum because it is one of the older Arrow coasters.
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There are a few simple reasons why not all old Arrow/Vekoma trains can be replaced. You mentioned the main reason. The rides haven't been designed for the new trains.
Everybody who has seen the new Vekoma trains know they don't have constant contact with the track. That's just PR talk. Fact is that the new trains are a lot lighter than the old trains. This difference in weight can be noticed while riding either Python (new trains, Efteling) or Big Loop (old trains, Heide-Park). Both coasters are basically the same, Big Loop is a lot faster - and rougher - though.
You can't just go and replace trains, the new trains have to have the same characteristics as the old trains, for instance weight, wind-resistance, and so on. The old Arrow/Vekoma trains are significantly different from the new..
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Dutch Coastin' :: European coasters, thrills and theming!
I honestly don't think Magnum is that rough. I've always gotten good rides on it, I don't see what people complain about. I don't look for a coaster with a smooth-as-glass ride, mainly because there are more coasters out there with a smooth-as-broken-glass ride.
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coasterzak said:
I don't think they would go to the extremem of tearing out Magnum because of it's roughness any time soon. I can name about 5 coasters that would leave that park ahead of Maggie.
Like I said, I just used Magnum XL 200 at Cedar Point as an EXAMPLE. It's one of the older and most famous Arrow coasters, so most people know about or have ridden it. I did not say that Magnum was going to be removed, or that it was going to receive new trains. I used that scenario to emphasize my point and help explain it to anyone that didn't understand my question. Anyway.....
So is it a fact that old Arrow coasters wouldn't be able to run with new trains that have their wheels in constant contact with the track? I'm going to use Vortex at Paramount's Kings Island as another EXAMPLE. Let's say that Premier desgined new trains for Vortex. The new trains would have lapbars and the wheels would be in constant contact with the track. These would be the only differences. The weight of the trains would be the same as the originals and the aerodynamic drag would also be designed to be the as the originals. Would it work?
I guess what I'm getting at is how can the wheels cause so much friction that the trains would not be able to complete the circuit?
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CoasterKrazy said:
Disclaimer: I'm am in no way saying that Magnum XL 200 at Cedar Point needs, or is going to get new trains. I simply used Magnum because it is one of the older Arrow coasters.
It is sad that to prevent flames thatdisclaimers have to written, I hate the way the forum can get at times, it can feel like walking on egg shells. As for new trains I have ridden Python at Eftling with the new trains and also Alton Towers' Corkscrew with both old and new. The Corkscrew is just as bumpy and didn't solve anything once there first season was finished.
I am surprised there hasn't been a "vekoma sux" post in here yet.
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*** This post was edited by Antuan on 1/18/2003. ***
*** This post was edited by Antuan on 1/18/2003. ***
Spring-loading the guide wheels, as I've said before, may remove a tiny jolt here or there, but it won't improve headbanging.
If you're in the passenger's seat of a car, notice when you go through faster curves (such as the exit ramp on a highway), you'll find that your upper body rocks back and forwards particularly when changing from straight to curved. This is coming from the whole idea of centripetal force, which I don't think I need to go into. This isn't really noticeable unless you're thinking about it, because the transitions are long so the forces are tiny (like 0.05G's). But, if you tighten these transitions considerably, as would be done on a coaster (yet keeping roughly the same speed), you would expect this banging to be more considerable. Your body is no longer free to absorb much of it in the torso, as it's all pinned down. You've also got the sometimes solid restraints to bounce back and forth between.
Lapbars would be great, they would remove this headbanging in the sense that there is no restraint beside your neck (or ears... or head), so there's nothing to bounce off (there's no way you'd start bouncing off the sides of the cars). Presumable have the same effect as Premier's refitting had (though I've never experienced either of the Premier trains).
Spring-loading the wheels will make the trains ease into the turns better, but I've never once experienced a jolt from the train shuffling to the outside rail, so I'm not sure how this would improve the overall ride quality.
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So what if the best coaster in Australia is a second hand Arrow?
*** This post was edited by auscoasterman on 1/18/2003. ***
Obviously, there's a lot more math and other problems in replacing trains. But to retrofit the old trains with newer restraints may not be a bad option. It wouldn't make the ride smoother, but it would make the restraint-passenger collisions less painful and noticeable.
A more expensive solution that, unfortunately, has caused further problems in some cases (Vampire @ Chessington) is to retrack a steel coaster or maybe redesigning a few of the transitions on the older Arrows, but as I mentioned, that would be a VERY big investment for just improving a ride with a pretty big risk involved which is why some parks would rather just sell it and replace it with something bigger and better.
Edit: I'm not saying that it's good to replace it, actually I think it's better to take pride in the rides you have and to show your pride with care in the ride.
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*** This post was edited by SFGAMDie HARD on 1/18/2003. ***
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I'm glad there are engineers out there who think more creatively than some of the people on these discussion groups.......
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Come on Dave, are you telling me that you don't have to have OTSR's to go upside down. Get out of here you have to be joking.
It's not like coasters have been going upside down for almost 100 years without horsecollars and with many different types of restraints.
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Wilko said:
It is sad that to prevent flames thatdisclaimers have to written, I hate the way the forum can get at times, it can feel like walking on egg shells. As for new trains I have ridden Python at Eftling with the new trains and also Alton Towers' Corkscrew with both old and new. The Corkscrew is just as bumpy and didn't solve anything once there first season was finished.
Corkscrew is a more than 20 year old transportable coaster suffering of poor maintenance. If you maintain your coaster and trains correctly, the new trains will make a noticable difference..
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