Need Information on B&M

Uhhh, holding brake, wide train, vertical drop...

hmmm....

You're right, nothing new or special about that.

Even though the same track is used for an invert and flyer, the seating style is incredible.

Compare, B&M's flying trains to Vekoma. Do I have a point?

-----------------

A holding brake works the same as any other brake. Would I be right in suggesting it can be used as a block on the vertical coasters?

There is nothing dramatically special about making the pitch of a drop a bit steeper than ususal - it took no new methods to achieve.

The 8-wide train was unprecedented, but just wider track and extra reinforcing is all it took.

Much of that was new, or new adaptations of existing techniques, the experience may be special, but I don't think there is anything special about the actual development of the ride.

-----------------
So what if the best coaster in Australia is a second hand Arrow?

FYI people, B&M never worked for Intamin, they consulted for Intamin on Giovanola's behalf. Although they worked on many Intamin rides, they were employed by Gio.

Uh, no. B&M worked for Intamin.

I don't know why people seem to want to give Giovanola all this credit for Intamin rides and such when it's simply undeserved. Giovanola has three coasters - and that's it. The rest was all fabrication work.

-Nate

Somewhat related.....

Anyone know why Stengel is credited on this BTR clone?

http://www.rcdb.com/installationdetail1567.htm

Did he do the first one and rcdb just doesn't show that, or what?

http://www.rcdb.com/installationdetail5.htm

*** This post was edited by Dale Picolet on 12/12/2002. ***

Probably because he claims it on his own site (http://members.aol.com/rcstengel/). Since he doesn't claim to have been involved with projects in every park with a B:TR clone, however, he probably just did some minor consulting work for the B:TR projects he does claim (La Ronde and WBMW). The design, however, is most likely not his.

-Nate

Of course, that speculation seems obvious....I was wondering if anyone actually knew what Stengel did on them...

RCDB used to say Werner designed Bull, it's probably a typo.

-----------------
Two friends, extremely in love with the same girl. She hates them both, but likes a third friend. (You think I'm advertising a reality show? That's my life!)

funny how posts here constantly become vs. posts, haha:)

and, just for good measure, i will proudly admit that i would take Batwing/XFlight over S:UF anyday ;)

-----------------
proud PKD homer :)
(currently a Dorney Park homer though...thanks to college:))

auscoasterman said:

A holding brake works the same as any other brake. Would I be right in suggesting it can be used as a block on the vertical coasters?

No it does not because it is not actually a brake! The holding brake is actually a chain running in the opposite direction to the train is travelling. There is a forward facing chain dog on the bottom of the train that locks onto this chain. It is then moved slowly forwards until at the correct spot. Then the chain stops and the train is held because the chain dog holds the train to the chain. When ready to drop the chain moves in the same direct as the train until the chain dog is released from it and the train drops.

It could in theory be used as a block but it would be difficult to evacuate from there as the train is hanging as a steep angle. For that reason I don't believe they do. I am trying to count the number of blocks now and I think there are 9 without the brake which is more than enough.

*** This post was edited by Wilko on 12/18/2002. ***

I was unaware of how the holding brake works. Certainly more complicated than I initially thought. Okay - I'll give them that one, I'd say that is pretty innovative. :)

My thinking that it may work as a block brake came from this picture at RCDB: http://rcdb.com/installationgallery777.htm?Picture=7 - it appears to me that the train on the lift would reach the holding brake before the train on the holding brake finishes the course - I'm sure it'd at least be close (unless that lift runs ridiculously slow).

-----------------
So what if the best coaster in Australia is a second hand Arrow?

rentzy387 said:
B&M had the concept before Vekoma.

Absolutely not true. Vekoma had the concept over a year earlier than B&M. Perhaps something to think about, the B&M OTSR system on flyings was first patented by Vekoma..

-----------------
Dutch Coastin' :: European coasters, thrills and theming!

Um...if it was pateneted by Vekoma, how is B&M using it? I doubt they licenced it and I really doubt the patent has expired.

-----------------
Be polite and ignore the idiots. - rollergator
You must be this dumb to ride Viper. -SFGAdv.

B&M used to work FOR Giovanola, not Intamin. I even got to talk to Walter about this at the IAAPA booth a few years ago. Giovanola and B&M were listed as being from the same city even. Giovanola did all of the older rides that were called "Intamin". Flashback, Batman in Texas, they are all Giovanola rides. Some of the old shuttle loops that are called Intamin shuttle loops were not Intamin's design work either. You can look at Giovanola's new rides, and even see the comparisions to their older rides from the 80's.

Well ApolloAndy, it is quite simple. Patents don't have much meaning. For instance, take that thing on your computer with that wire attached to it. Most people refer to that as a "mouse". This device has been patented over 100 times. What I'm trying to say is, a patent isn't all what people think it is. It's all in the way you describe the patented object. Just take a random patent, alter a few things, and patent it. Nobody will notice it.

So now, KMG and B&M use the OTSR system invented by Vekoma. B&M also uses the box-bream track invented by GTec SA and so on. Not a very innovative company at all.

Cory, I did an article on GTec a little while ago, just letting you know B&M and GTec aren't just from the same city. Their corporate headquarters are just about 300 metres apart. :)

As I said, an article about GTec, and some graphic material of their rides.

-----------------
Dutch Coastin' :: European coasters, thrills and theming!

Perhaps I'm mistaken, and I haven't ridden a B&M flyer, but aren't they vastly different from the Vekomas? When was Vekoma's flyer restraint patent? (Perhaps a link to it on uspto?) I know B&M was working on their flyer before Oblivion at AT.

-----------------
Be polite and ignore the idiots. - rollergator
You must be this dumb to ride Viper. -SFGAdv.

No, Corey Patrick, that's not true. Not at all.

Back when Intamin was building bobsleds and stand-ups, B&M worked for them and Giovanola was a fabricating company. That is, Intamin did the design work and Giovanola just fabricated. Intamin worked as a broker for Schwarzkopf, but *not* for Giovanola (because all they did was steel work).

Giovanola may now have the rights to build Intamin's older rides, and indeed they can claim them on their site because they *were* involved in their production (just not design). If their site is somehow proof that they're Giovanola rides, then why are they all listed on Intamin's site as well?

B&M worked for Intamin, *never* Giovanola. The two companies worked closely together because one fabricated for the other, but the older rides are not Giovanola designs.

As for the B&M vs Vekoma flyers, it's very common knowledge that B&M's was in development first. You'd think that DRNK would know this, given his "close ties" with B&M, but apparently the Dutch/Vekoma bias has gotten in the way of seeing clearly again.

Edit: Where is there an Intamin shuttle loop anyway??

-Nate

*** This post was edited by coasterdude318 on 12/19/2002. ***

I'd just like to say I love B&M, I have never ridden a coaster of theirs I didn't like and that includes Iron Wolf and Mantis. I will admit Iron Wolf packs a lot of power but unless you have something physically wrong with or stupidly don't at least try and stay in one place (keep your torso and neck stiff instead of loose so they fly off everywhere) then you should have no problem with a single coaster of theirs. As for actual background information on them I can tell you there names are Walter Bolliger and Claude Mabillard and they've built some of the funnest coasters around. That's pretty much all you need to know (that's my opinion).

The Vekoma coasters are cheap, crap, and I don't know why the hell parks build them. They're junk. B&M is so much better then Vekoma. I thought I was going to fall out of the train on X-Flight at SFWoA.

Well, you didn't fall out, so unless you are paying for the rides, don't knock 'em. Any of them. When you buy em, you can criticize all you want. And why would this guy want financial info?