Mini-Vacation planning - SFOT/SFFT

Carrie J. said:

On whether it's "worth it" to pay a toll or avoid it, I think it depends on the circumstance. Any number of reasons can lead to either one.

Yeah, I think we conceded this point a while back. At this point it's debating for sport. :)

Jeph said:

Seriously though, you're glorifying toll roads beyond what I've experienced.

And on my side of the fence it feels like you're glorifying the alternative routes.

...why not hit a few buttons on the GPS to see what my other options are?

Again,. I'm fundamentally a different thinker. You think "Why not?" and I think, "Why?"

I know where I'm going, it's simple. The cost is neglible. Why on earth would I bother trying to fix what isn't broken?

Not everyone spends $1500 on their road trips for the tolls to be so insignificant though. When I'm not with Mac & Josh (Spent over $150 that night lol), my expenses at CP are typically very low. I would kill your 2% figure. If I actually paid the $8 toll, it'd sometimes be the only measurable expense of the trip.

Again, semantic problems. A road trip to CP doesn't qualify as a theme park vacation for me.

Vacation is a week on the road moving from city to city hitting parks all along the way.

My hybrid winks at me as my efficiency meter fills. I wink back.

My car growls as I press the gas, get pushed into my seat and zip past the plebians in their grocery getters. I growl back. We fist bump. It's a bromance worth gas prices twice as high as they are now.

...if I saved $1,000 in tolls over X amount of time, I don't really care if I spent $5,000 or $20,000 on the vacations themselves. I'll have an extra $1000 to use on future tolls when the roads are of great benefit. ;-)

Those variables make all the difference.

If X=1 year. Sure, I'm with you. If X=the 13 years we've been traveling to parks, then you're not even close to worth it.

If I only spent $5000, then saving $1000 is certainly worth it. If that $1000 equals 2% of my total expenses, then it's not.

Back to what we (and Carrie) said - the circumstances make all the difference. Not all $1000s are created equal.

I suspect I value other things more than I do money. I can think of a multitude of things more important than a few dollars in my pocket.

Lord Gonchar said:

My hybrid winks at me as my efficiency meter fills. I wink back.

My car growls as I press the gas, get pushed into my seat and zip past the plebians in their grocery getters. I growl back. We fist bump. It's a bromance worth gas prices twice as high as they are now.

The awesomeness of this statement (complete with the quote before it for context and added emphasis) cannot be expressed in words.

That's a great feeling, isn't it? And that's also one that makes my decision on which roads to take. Sometimes it's fun just opening it up on the highway and flying past everybody. Sometimes I like hugging the sharp turns and changes in elevation of a more rural road.

When we take my wife's Pilot I just want the drive to be over. When I take my car, getting there is part of the fun.

I'm sure this is just a re-articulation of points already made but here goes:
If I'm only going to make a specific trip once or twice (say, when I'm on vacation) then the extra effort to find a "better" route saves me, what $5? $10? For an hour of research? I'll pass. Especially when putting that time to anything else on the trip (better hotel, park, or airfare planning) will almost certainly save me more money AND the last thing I want to do on my vacation is spend an extra 30 minutes in the car.l

If it's a route that I'm going to drive regularly, say once a month every month for the whole year, I'll at least do the research. The potential savings there is anywhere from $60-$120 per year and it's probably more like an addition 5 minutes onto a 30 minute trip on company time. I may still decide to pay the toll, but at least I'll consider it.

There are times when instead of going on a Toll Road I take "The Old Road" especially if there is no need to make time. I'll find some neat things that I'm glad I found because I decided to take a trip off the beaten path.

^Exactly! I would never have discovered Conneaut, Ohio's White Turkey Drive In if I'd stuck to the turnpike.

Lord Gonchar said:

My hybrid winks at me as my efficiency meter fills. I wink back.

My car growls as I press the gas, get pushed into my seat and zip past the plebians in their grocery getters. I growl back. We fist bump. It's a bromance worth gas prices twice as high as they are now.

lol I knew that was coming. Don't you have a Nissan grocery getter too, plebian?

For the record, I've had a manual, V8-powered car from the time I was 16 (and still do) that would zip past your Camaro. ;-) I've logged close to 200k on these cars in every driving condition (including driving a manual, 500-HP Ford Shelby GT500 when I worked as an engineer for an automotive supplier), and here's my conclusion:

They're very fun cars to drive in very specific conditions, like when I'm by myself in good weather around a traffic-less city or along some back roads for short trips. The thought of you road tripping with the family across the country in a (manual? V8?) Camaro is just hilarious, because I know how awful it can be; I've done that with friends.

The hum of the V8 tends to be unpleasant after a few hours of boring turnpike driving, as you just want to hear clear audio without blasting the system. The comfort quickly declines with the cramped interior...especially with the back-seat occupants. The ride quality is harsh and can be fatiguing. The shifting gets annoying, especially if you get stuck in stop-and-go traffic for an hour. The driving can become stressful with an unexpected snow storm or heavy rain. The limits on storage mean you have to make sacrifices, like leaving the dog and some luggage back home...unless you're one of those that straps a trailer to the back. ;-)

I could go on, but I'm at the point in my life where with as much driving as I do, I have my power car when I'm in the mood for fun, and I have my hybrid SUV for my efficient commuting and road-tripping needs. And surprisingly, I find my hybrid grocery getter every bit as fun in a polar opposite way. It's like an addictive video game where you keep acceleration and braking within visible targets to get the highest score, or the highest average fuel economy. I enjoy being entertained as I pick up my groceries.

All the cars I've owned for nearly 20 years have been manual, and no matter how many times I hear how annoying it is to drive in stop-and-go traffic, it just doesn't bother me.

I'd also expect the drone of the V8 to be less problematic than my 4-banger, at least on the Camaro. I've never driven a Camaro, but I've driven quite a few Mustangs and their cabins are much more insulated than my Mazda (which also has aftermarket intake and motor mount, the latter of which causes louder and more prominent cabin vibrations than stock). Plus, the V8 just sounds better.

I drove the fam 3 hours to Knoebels last month, and had no complaints...not even from the wife, who's not a huge fan of my car). The only advantage I can see is that my car has more rear passenger legroom (and rear doors).

Jeph said:

The comfort quickly declines with the cramped interior...especially with the back-seat occupants. The ride quality is harsh and can be fatiguing.

The thought of you road tripping with the family across the country in a (manual? V8?) Camaro is just hilarious, because I know how awful it can be; I've done that with friends.

I'm not going to go point by point on this one, but this part got an actual laugh out of me. Just because every since we got the Camaro, my wife & I have said that sitting in that car is the most comfortable seat we own.

For comfort, I would take a road trip in that car over the equivalent time on my couch. We've done more than a few long trips. I don't seem to have any of the issues you do. (Although maybe that says more about the quality of my couch than anything, huh?)

This is three suitcases, two laptop bags, two camera bags, 4 pairs of loose shoes, a purse, a tote bag full of random stuff and room to spare:

And there's never a time when stepping on the gas and going from not much to a whole lotta something in a matter of seconds isn't the best choice. ;)

As far as the toll thing, Andy summed it up pretty well. A one-off is rarely gonna get skipped. A regular occurance is going to come down to a cost/time comparison...and I tend to value my time highly and my money as spendable.

In 1988 I decided to take a side trip off the beaten path and I "Discovered" an Amusement Park with a Coaster that wasn't mentioned on any of ACE's Census Lists. The Park was called Putting Pond and it was in the town of Fostoria, Ohio. The coaster was a "Pipeline Express" Mini Coaster. Tyhe park is gone now, but it was a rather pleasant surprise I would have missed if I had stuck to the beaten path.

Yeah, but that's true of all travel, all the time. I'm not going to suddenly start going everywhere "off the beaten path" just because I might have found something along the way.

To me that's a separate argument...and traveling with a different purpose.

The discussion seems to be at what point saving money by avoiding a toll is worth an alternate route. We're not looking to find the great undiscovered, we're simply going from A to B.

Vater, I totally agree about Manual Transmissions. I missing having a stick really bad (Wow, I really wish Moosh was here for that).

It was just more fun.

Vater said:

All the cars I've owned for nearly 20 years have been manual, and no matter how many times I hear how annoying it is to drive in stop-and-go traffic, it just doesn't bother me.

Me too. My parents both drove sticks, so if I wanted to learn to drive it was pretty much required. Now I won't get a car without it. When my wife, who wasn't my wife at the time, wanted a cheap car with good mileage in college she learned as well. It's one of the main reasons I don't care for driving the Pilot.

We had friends that moved to Pgh from Virginia and both drove sticks, but both switched to autos when they got here because "I don't know how you can drive a stick with all those hills!" That's WHY I have it. It's definitely not as much fun if you're just cruising in 4th gear on flat land all the time.

That's a first; can't say I've ever heard of anyone avoiding a manual just because of hills. That's bizarre to me.

Lord Gonchar said:...this part got an actual laugh out of me. Just because every since we got the Camaro, my wife & I have said that sitting in that car is the most comfortable seat we own.

Hey, I'm always happy to make people laugh. ;-) For me, it's not an issue of seat comfort; it's when you're road-tripping with more than 2. I'd put my seat forward as much as I could stand to try to be accommodating for friends in the rear seats, but it still wouldn't stop the complaints after long stretches. These cars are not meant for this. I quickly checked Edmunds to see if I was missing out on the car that did it all, but what I found aligned with what I was saying:

That said, there are still a few issues that impact the Camaro's daily usability. For one, the Camaro is just hard to see out of....while backseat comfort is never a prime concern for a coupe, the Camaro's the worst among muscle cars....the trunk's 11.3-cubic-foot (10.2 cubes in the convertible) capacity is respectable, but its opening is so comically small that loading longer items is an exercise in futility -- golfers be warned.

...and that's no disrespect for the Camaro. While I've always preferred Mustangs, I like all these type cars. It's just that after over a decade of experience, I realize that these cars aren't ideal for commuting, road-tripping, family or friend-hauling, or carrying stuff.

As for the manual transmission discussion, yes, I totally agree they're fun, and I'll always have one in my fun car. But with over an hour daily commute to the Detroit area for a couple years in my Mustang, I always dreaded getting to the stop-and-go traffic congestion. I'd try to reduce shifting by staying in first and creeping forward or staying in neutral until there was a gap of several car lengths. But Detroit drivers would show no mercy, quickly cutting into the gap. My car had a stiff clutch, and after 20-30 minutes of basically riding it most days, I just wanted it to be over.

Anyway, it's entertaining that what was intended to be a helpful tip for Carrie and others turned into a toll, vehicle practicality, and transmission debate. But personally, if I was planning my mini-vacation, I wouldn't even consider a muscle car with more than 2 people, and I would advise against a manual transmission if I was going to be traveling through congested cities like Chicago...oh, and at least check your GPS to see if the toll roads are worth it. ;-)

Vater said:I drove the fam 3 hours to Knoebels last month, and had no complaints...not even from the wife, who's not a huge fan of my car). The only advantage I can see is that my car has more rear passenger legroom (and rear doors).

Yeah, completely different ball game. Here is a picture of someone sitting in the rear seat of the current generation Camaro:

My 3- and 7-year olds aren't quite that large.

Jeph said:
I realize that these cars aren't ideal for commuting, road-tripping, family or friend-hauling, or carrying stuff.

It depends on what your ideal is, I suppose.

For me, it's to carry the family and the stuff we need both short and long distances while having the ability to go like a mofo and look damn good in the process.

Check, check, check and check.

Well, I'm glad it's working for you; that's all that matters. But once the kids grow a bit more, make sure to give their legs a flick every now and then on those long trips. Man, if I had a dollar for every leg I've lost to the back seat, I'd have like 2. ;-)

I should point out that I am being a little hypocritical here...sorta.

The last drive we did was to visit family in Decatur, MI and I specifically chose the route without tolls.

Go to Google maps and get a route from Dayton to Decatur.

The first route it gives (via I-75) is 251 miles with a travel time of 4h 18m and includes tolls.

The second route it gives (via I-69) is 23 miles longer but only 1 minute longer - plus it keeps you on interstates for more of the drive.

For me it was a no-brainer. Stay on the interstates where you can do better time plus skip the tolls.

So yeah, I was able to stay on the beaten path, make better time with real-world interstate speeds and avoid the toll.

Come to think of it, I guess my choice was based more on the roads and time than the toll. Nevermind.