Millennium Force Seatbelts

I said a few pages ago that I may be speaking with my wallet.

If the park doesn't accommodate you, go to one that does.

LostKause said:
I said a few pages ago that I may be speaking with my wallet.

If the park doesn't accommodate you, go to one that does.

The best suggestion ever. =)

Hi all! Long time, no see.

I'm really disappointed to hear about the problems with MF's belts. Guess I have less incentive to make it up to CP again this year.

Even though I'm definitely on the large side, I haven't had *much* trouble over the years. The only time I had to do the "walk of shame" (and oh, how accurate that name is!!) was on the former Top Gun at Carowinds-- and that was more because I'm uh, rather well-endowed! :) I'm worried, though, that this year I won't be able to ride Intimidator, which depresses the heck out of me. Too bad women don't lose weight as quickly or easily as men! :)

I do wish that ride designers would take into consideration the fact that riders come in different shapes and sizes, and come up with some more adaptable restraint systems. I still laugh when I look at the pic of myself on Carolina Cobra, with the little kid next to me whose head barely came above the U part of the shoulder harness!

I like the idea of retractable seat belts, especially if the buckle is easy to reach but not in the way. A poorly-placed buckle can HURT.

Does anybody know what other rides have the same trains as MF? Do people have the same trouble on them and we just don't hear about it? Is it just an Ohio state law that they have to follow manufacturers recommendations?

Doug Rowe said:
Dave, you're not alone. After riding Wicked Twister successfully for 8 years, I got my first rejection last year. Something very strange and evil has occurred on that coaster's restraints - and continues to get worse.

About halfway through last season I was suddenly unable to fit on WT anymore. One week I did, a week or two later I didn't. I didn't even try it (or the test seat) last weekend.

I like the retractable belts on * Streak, although I wish the buckle ends were higher. It's nearly impossible for me to reach them after sitting down.

I think the Millennium Force trains may be unique, representing an interim stage in the development of that train style. They are quite obviously different from the Dragster trains, and they are quite obviously different from the (original configuration of the) Superman: Ride of Steel trains. The only ride I can think of that might have had the same type of train is Expedition GeForce, and looking at photos I am pretty sure those trains were modified and possibly replaced or at least rebuilt.

Ohio law is not unique in that it follows the recommendations of ASTM F 770:6, which in turn enjoins ride owner/operators to follow specifications given by the ride manufacturer, which is supposed to be following ASTM F 2291, which is the design standard. The question is, at what point is it better for the owner to conduct a ride analysis in accordance with the terms of ASTM F 2291:5.1.1.1 and take on the role of "manufacturer"? The other question is whether the present belt length problem is really an Intamin directive, or if Cedar Point hired a seat belt mechanic from Coney Island Park, where it seemed that über-short seat belts were ridiculously common a few years ago... :)

Chris: Have you seen how the belts are implemented on the Kings Island coasters? On Racer and The Beast, there is a large metal link that both belts pass through *above* the seat divider, which does a nice job of preventing you from sitting on the receiver end of the belt. It seems to work pretty well, and given that Cedar Point seems to have adopted the Kings Island design in virtually all other ways (including the use of push-button buckles) I'm kind of surprised they didn't install this one element at Cedar Point as well.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

People keep suggesting that moving the buckle to the middle of the lap would be such an improvement on Millennium Force without considering the impact of having a lift-latch buckle (because you couldn't use a side-squeeze or push button buckle in such a configuration) between the body and the lap bar.

I missed this part. Why would the buckle design have to change? Would it only have to change if the belts "met in the middle"---in other words, could you keep the current design if you just added a few inches to the female end?

Thanks RideMan.

mlnem4s said:
The Cleveland Plain Dealer did a quick article Sunday discussing attendance at CP and KI. Is it any wonder CP has fallen under the 3 million attendance mark for the first time in 30 years and is now ranked third in attendance of seasonal Cedar Fair parks? (Hello, power of 3!) If you were the CEO of an amusement park company who's "flagship park" is in the middle of a region where population is falling drastically and has huge unemployment issues, wouldn't you be doing everything in your power to make sure the guest experience was as flawless as can be by fixing silly things like a ride manufacturer who can't design restraints that fit the new "average" size of Americans? Come on already, this is COMMON SENSE stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Really? The restraints are the problem? Not the terrible overpriced food? Not the complete lack of technology to streamline operations? Not the fact that the leadership micromanages the parks and does so from a 1950's mindset? It's the restraints that are bringing down the guest experience?

mlnem4s said:
Here we go again....when are Americans going to learn to eat more fresh fruits and vegetables and less high fructose corn syrup and sugar? I dare say if you are above a 40" waist you are gonna have trouble, that's just the facts of life with Intamin T-bars and it isn't going to change no matter how much people complain. It really is your choice.

Going out on a limb here, but I'd guess that Cedar Fair sells a lot more hfcs and sugar than fresh fruits and vegetables. Short of this being a known safety issue or an insurance issue, you have to question why the park or manufacturer would arbitrarily make the changes.

If people are going to either not fit in the ride and decide it's not worth their while to make a return visit, or wonder if they'll be able to fit at all and decide against even going to the park, what is the park accomplishing if there is no safety issue at stake? It's not Cedar Fair's job to moralize about obesity in America. It is their job not to piss off existing or potential customers. This isn't much different than a fast food joint deciding to totally eliminate all fats and sugar from its menu. Or a store deciding not to sell any clothing larger than a certain waist size. They might be making a statement, but their next earnings statement will have a lot of red in it.

Again, having different length belts in different seats, and many of them being different from the test seats shows what an inconsistent, arbitrary policy this is.

I wouldn't even mind the new style seats on I305 with the soft OTSR seen here

It would allow larger riders and speed up dispatches. Any thing to get rid of the seatbelts.

@RatherGoodBear: I am giving Cedar Fair some credit by saying it is a two-way street when it comes to Americans and our eating habits which have some responsibility for the problems. There is no ride manufacturer who is capable of designing a restrain system that accomodates everyone from a 48", 130lb child to an adult who is 6', 300lbs+, that just isn't reality. Yes, Intamin restraints are unusually wacky and it needs to be addressed but also American's simply need to take personal responsibility and understand that being 300lbs+ is not healthy.

@ApolloAndy, the topic we are on is about restraint issues, not all of the other things you mention which we debate at length under the appropriate topics. Working in the industry for years in various capacities I know for fact that one of THE biggest complaints encompasses height requirements, restraints, paying full price yet not able to ride all the rides, etc etc etc. I have seen the data and the surveys and sat in meetings discussing this very topic; while a lot of it is just pure stupidity on the part of park guests it does directly impact how people spend their discretionary dollars and the negative feedback they give to others about their experience. It is also why many of us have been screaming at Cedar Fair to build "family rides" (ala Disney/Universal) that entire families can ride together which addresses a lot of the complaints I would see. Alas, Cedar Point builds a new water ride and I doubt, again, that it addresses the need. For those old enough to remember, I dare say the Cedar Point of the 70's and 80's was far more "family friendly" than it is today.

Brian Noble said:

(quoting me)
People keep suggesting that moving the buckle to the middle of the lap would be such an improvement on Millennium Force without considering the impact of having a lift-latch buckle (because you couldn't use a side-squeeze or push button buckle in such a configuration) between the body and the lap bar.

I missed this part. Why would the buckle design have to change? Would it only have to change if the belts "met in the middle"---in other words, could you keep the current design if you just added a few inches to the female end?

The current buckle is a side-squeeze model, and if it met in the middle of my lap, it might be okay, or it might get squeezed between my stomach and my lap. The result is an increased risk of unintentional release. Likewise, if you put a pushbutton buckle in there, you have the same problem...the lap bar would rest against the release button. So if you're going to have the straps meet in the middle, the safest buckle to use (not to mention the most durable) is a lift-latch buckle, particularly one that requires a 90-110 degree release.

Increasing the belt length on the outboard side by a small amount would not necessitate a change in buckle. What I don't understand is why they couldn't put some kind of a stiffener on the underside of the belt on the buckle side (outboard end) to hold the buckle in line with the belt. If the buckle were stable enough to allow for one-handed fastening it would dramatically improve the situation.

I say, let's just put Shoot the Rapids style lap bars on the thing, with the Maverick style safety belt if you like (anybody know if Shoot the Rapids will have safety belts?), and solve the problem once and for all...

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Rideman you just cursed StR by asking if it has belts!! That will be next, guaranteed :(

If it does I expect they will be on the lap bar as they are on Raptor, Power Tower, Corkscrew, Maverick and Wave Swinger. In which case the :( is really not, in my opinion, justified.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

mlnem4s said:
@RatherGoodBear: I am giving Cedar Fair some credit by saying it is a two-way street when it comes to Americans and our eating habits which have some responsibility for the problems. There is no ride manufacturer who is capable of designing a restrain system that accomodates everyone from a 48", 130lb child to an adult who is 6', 300lbs+, that just isn't reality. Yes, Intamin restraints are unusually wacky and it needs to be addressed but also American's simply need to take personal responsibility and understand that being 300lbs+ is not healthy.

I'm 240 lbs. and won't fit. That's far from 300.

mlnem4s said:
For those old enough to remember, I dare say the Cedar Point of the 70's and 80's was far more "family friendly" than it is today.

There is an argument for that (though I am not in total agreement with it). But back then, we arrived at CP riding the backs of station wagons with no seat belts, rode our bikes without helmets and played lawn darts. Safety wasn't as big a focus back then. Few rides had seat belts.

I am the same weight that I was last year, and I did have a hard time getting the belt to fit this weekend.

I don't understand how the belt length would matter. As long as it is tight on you, what differance does the length make?

@MrNinja...thus you prove my statement that "Intamin's are unusually wacky" by not accomodating a guest of 240lbs. Though, in Intamin's defense, I must say that 240lbs is also the limitation Vekoma uses for guests riding their flyers as well but undoubtebly that is not enforced and the restraint design is obviously much different. It's pretty much if you can get a green light from the vest restraint and hip bars you are good to go.

Likewise, if you put a pushbutton buckle in there, you have the same problem...the lap bar would rest against the release button.

Not if the button is recessed, though, no?

I'm with you on the stiffener/guide, though. That would make the process much *much* simpler.