Man injured on fair coaster with his hands up, operator blames rider
Posted
Florida's fair ride inspector reported last week that he found nothing wrong with the Doppel Looper double-looping roller coaster at the South Florida Fair. He inspected the coaster Sunday, a day after a Lantana man said his wrist and arm were broken as he held them over his head during the ride. Conklin Shows, which operates the ride, says that signs indicate to riders to keep their hands down. The rider says that's "unrealistic" expectation.
Read more from The Palm Beach Post.
I really can't see that this is anything other than an open and shut case. The man admitted to disrearding a safety rule that, presumably, was devised with respect to the safe operation of the coaster. If the signs were clearly posted and he was aware of this rule then he doesn't have a leg to stand on.
It is NOT an excuse to disobey park rules because you interpret them as unrealistic or belive that everyone else does it. The analogies that people are drawing with speeding are apt in some respects: you may not agree that a rule is necessary to ensure safety, but that doesn't give you the right to just ignore it.
It's not that I (or, I hope, anyone else) is happy that this man got injured as a result of his transgression. It's the attitude after the event of refusing to accept personal responsibility for one's own actions that bothers me.
The principle is simple: If you disobey the rules and fall foul of them, then at least have the integrity and maturity to admit you were in the wrong and don't try and palm responsibility off elsewhere.
B
SVLFever, so your saying that your 12 yo old little brother is on a ride and hurts himself cause he reached out his hands like his big brother. Are you going to tell him he should have read the signs?
Eightdotthree-no, I would not have expected him to read the signs. As his big brother, I would have intervened if he did something unsafe-it's called responsibility-and in today's society, people want sue to make a buck, claiming they were not responsible. And yes, when I ride with my neice and nephew (I am the little brother in my family), I hold on tight and have them do the same-that's leading by example.
I hope this guy is OK, but, I don't see this as negligence on the park's part...it's rider error.
Fever
I thought that all coasters are designed this way - I wonder what happened to this fellow. Maybe he really was unusually tall - but even then there should have been a warning by the ride operator.
I think putting up signs is probably not enough in a case like this.
I wonder - was this the old Schwarzkopf double-loop layout?
This has been around for so long without anything ever happening - so why now the accident?
BeyondOblivion: Where do you see this man refusing to take any personal responsibility? Where do you see him pushing resonsibility solely onto another party? If I were hurt in a similar incident, I'd make a damn good effort to make sure it never happened again. Sometimes a lawsuit is a good way to do that.
Even worse is that without a doubt, any enthusiast (including every one in here complaining about it) who had this happen to him or her would be on the lawsuit trail immediately. After all, don't we enthusiasts "know" (note the quotation marks) that clearances are taken into account? Don't we "know" it's safe to ride with our arms up, regardless of signs? How many enthusiasts have ridden Laser or Colossus the Fire Dragon or even this very ride with their arms up? Consider that before you post any more hypocrisies.
-Nate
*** This post was edited by coasterdude318 1/27/2004 1:37:50 PM ***
To me, there is an inherent risk in any type of activity, be it hang gliding, or driving a car to work. By your argument, you could argue that every car made should have the doors lock, and remain locked, until the car comes to a complete stop and the parking brake is set. What prevents someone from driving around hanging their legs out of the car with their doors open, and then wonder why the broke their leg when the car went around the corner?
I am not trying to be an antagonist here, I am just wondering where the line is between a design element, and plain old stupidity...
Fever
Bakeman said:...so don't act like it's crime to hold your hands up.
Actually, it is a crime in many (most?) states. Pennsylvania and Ohio, for example, make it a crime to disobey any posted rule at amusement parks or fairs. By raising his hands after being warned verbally or through signage he was breaking the law.
eightdotthree said:...so your [sic] saying that your 12 yo old little brother is on a ride and hurts himself cause he reached out his hands like his big brother. Are you going to tell him he should have read the signs?
Ummm.... yes. A twelve year old is definitely old enough to read and understand the concept of safety and consequences of rule breaking. A six year old? No. Twelve? Absolutely.
a bunch of people said:idiot.
That's a bit rough. I'm sure he wasn't an idiot, just an average person trying to have a good time. He admits he did something wrong.
Rules are there for a reason. Parks and fairs are in business to offer people fun. They're not gonna make up rules just to dampen your day. They're there to protect you. He knows this now.
Sorry, but I think this one needs chalked up to "lesson learned."
If you ask anyone in the amusement industry about "inherent risk" they'll all tell you the same thing; this industry strives for a 100% safety record. Now, certainly auto manufacturers, airtlines, etc to as well, and I'm not suggesting they don't. I'm pointing out that "inherent risk" theoretically does not exist in the industry (at least, not in terms of safety). Therefore, any good manufacturer and/or operator must do his or her best to prevent incidents. I don't think that was done in this case.
Your argument regarding driving a car with your legs hanging out is a different situation, and I'll explain why. Most people do not drive their cars around with their legs hanging out the door. If it was a common thing for people to drive around with their legs hanging out and (for some reason) Car A offered potential risk of injury due to this activity when other cars do not, then it is the manufacturer of Car A's duty to prevent the activity from turning into accident. But that's not the case. Because people don't commonly drive around with their legs hanging out the door, anyone who does this and gets hurt is at fault. Similarly, trying to wiggle out of restraints is not a common roller coaster-related activity. Although I believe restraints should be designed to keep people in the train, I realize that keeping a normal rider and keeping someone who is actively trying to escape are not the same things. Thus, the rider who succeeded in defeating the restraints on the PKD standup was at fault.
On the other hand, riding roller coasters with your hands in the air is most definitely a common activity. It's about as common as screaming. Therefore, if your roller coaster has the potential to injure someone who is participating in a reasonably normal activity, it is your job to prevent it from happening. Warning signs are not prevention. In this case, the accident was not reasonably prevented against, and we see what happened. What is the liklihood it will happen again?
-Nate
*** This post was edited by MForcer 1/27/2004 8:32:37 PM ***
MForcer, I don't believe for one second you wouldn't sue if you got injured on a coaster, no matter how. Perhaps you wouldn't sue to benefit financially but to get the problem righted so the incident doesn't happen again. Perhaps this is what this guy is doing. Or perhaps he isn't suing at all. I love how it's the manufacturer or park's fault if you can't fit into a ride, but it's your fault if you manage to get injured on it (see ARN&R). That article couldn't be more right on.
-Nate
Carefull what you wish for...you just might get it. Got it!!!
-Ken
MForcer: does the article lead you to believe anything is being done to prevent a similar accident? Basically, they claimed there's no way the accident could have happened (but, um, it did). If I was the man, I'd be pissed I got injured in the first place, and even more pissed that nobody seems concerned with preventing it from happening again.
-Nate
jeremy said:...is a sign really enough?
This is actually a really interesting question, and it takes into account the subject of a lot of the posts on this thread -- where exactly is the line between rider responsibility and operator accountability (the operator, in this case, being either the park or the individual running the ride, whatever you'd like to choose).
I'd like to think that if you visably post warnings expressly saying what not to do, your message will be observed and the proper conduct will be practiced. Even if the expectations are unreasonable, they are there and must be observed. Just how far is the park or operator expected to go to ensure that everyone is safe? If the guy read the sign and heard the warnings and chose to ignore them anyway, did he do enough to make sure he was going to be safe? How much is he expected to do as opposed to what the park is expected to do?
I know this won't be an open and shut case, but in my completely biased mind I see a guy who should've known what not to do, did it anyway, and is trying to (at the most basic level) remove himself from the responsibility of his ignorance. Call me old-fashioned (or just obnoxious, should you choose) but you have to take responsibility for your actions. Bottom line.
Ken-
I'm 6'2". On the CI Cyclone last summer I had my hands raised all the way up and on a turn I was thrown to the side and slapped a wood beam with my fingers. Happily, all I got a was a good burning sensation for a while afterwards with no real damage. If I had gotten real damage, I probably would have kept it to myself, let my insurance handle the injury, and not made any stink about it at all. Of course, after that incident I keep my arms only half-way extended on the ride.
I don't want OTSRs on the Cyclone (that's absurd) and I don't want ride operators banning me from the roller coaster for keeping my hands up (and anyone familiar with the Cyclone ride ops would know that's even more absurd).
However, if a park knows there is a safety issue, and doesn't act accordingly, they are then liable for any future incidents and from a legal perspective I agree with that. In other words, if it's now widely known that this kind of injury can happen on this particular type of roller coaster, then parks with said coaster are now responsible for enforcing the "no hands up" rule beyond just a sign. Now, I wish this weren't true in reference to roller coasters, but it's a reasonable principle when applied to most everything else.
This is similar to the rocks being thrown at Worlds of Adventure (which, unlike in this case, I personally agree with). SF knew the rocks were being thrown in that section, knew other riders got hit, and did not increase security at that section and did not remove the rocks. They are therefore liable for her injury.
So maybe this guy is liable for his injury. But the next person who has their hand hurt on this type of roller coaster will have a case if it can be proven now that there is a history of this type of injury on this coaster.
Again, though I agree legally with this, I still wish riders like coasterdude318 would not view parks as places where they are encased in a magic park safety bubble. If the ride's signs says keep your arms inside, then keep your arms inside. If you choose to place your arms up on the ride (as I and many others do), then please take some personal responsibility for the consequences. Very unfortunately, however, I think coasterdude is right at least in the sense that their will be justifiable legal pressure on the parks to enforce the hands down rule on at least this particular build of roller coaster (or they will install OTSRs).
Incidentally, there are enthusiasts beside coasterdude that have the opinion that roller coasters should be safe for people with their hands up and that any injury sustained, in spite of whatever the rider was doing, is a design flaw of the coaster as long as the rider did not break restraints. Check out this RRC thread from July:
Link to thread (um; sorry, not html linking allowed in text and the link itself messes up teh formatting of the page - the thread is titled "Subject: Coaster Zombies act-up causing Texas Cyclone change?"*** This post was edited by rdreaming 1/28/2004 9:50:40 PM ***
MForcer said:
Nate -so if you owned a park and someone was hurt wouldnt you do an investigation and find out why-you wouldnt say -gee I dont know why that happened lets keep endangering people if it is a ride problem.There are other ways to fix a situation than by suing and getting a lot of money
Yes, if I owned a park and somebody was hurt I would fix the problem, and do everything I could to prevent it from happening again. But that doesn't seem to be the case here. The operator of the ride took the attitude of, "There's nothing wrong with the ride" and never really addressed the issue. Well, if there's nothing wrong with it, why is somebody now injured? If I was that man, I'd be pissed about the operator's attitude. And a lawsuit is certainly going to get the operator's attention - and probably get the unsafe situation changed.
rdreaming said:
still wish riders like coasterdude318 would not view parks as places where they are encased in a magic park safety bubble. If the ride's signs says keep your arms inside, then keep your arms inside. If you choose to place your arms up on the ride (as I and many others do), then please take some personal responsibility for the consequences. Very unfortunately, however, I think coasterdude is right at least in the sense that their will be justifiable legal pressure on the parks to enforce the hands down rule on at least this particular build of roller coaster
I think that's an incorrect assumption about me. I don't think parks are "magic safety bubbles" and that I can disobey any rules I wish without consequences. I realize there are ways people can - and do - get hurt at parks. Many of those things cannot be prevented if the person involved is insistent enough upon breaking the rules (please note the PGA Top Gun incident and the PKD standup incident). However, casual riders who ride in normally-accepted manners should absolutely be able to take a ride without being injured. I absolutely do think asking you to keep your arms down or risk having them broken is unrealistic because the fact is that raising your arms on a coaster is a normal and common thing to do. Injuries resulting from clearance issues are also easily preventable. I don't think it's fair to ask someone to admit they deserved having their arms taken off because they raised them on a ride, sign or not. It's a common thing to do, it's an easily preventable injury, and unfortunately appropriate measures were not taken in this case.
-Nate
1 if the ride was inspected and found to be fine
2 it hasnt happened in the past to anyone but him
3 he was told to keep his arms down and saw signs which he admits to seeing.(thats a rule not a suggestion)even though I and alot of others do it.
4 the operator was there and we were not.
I never said the ride didnt malfunction,or that he didnt deserve money if it did (due to negligence on the part of the park)
but I did say he is an idiot he tries to benefit by getting money for holding his hands up which he shouldnt and then gets hurt.he should not get money for breaking the rules and getting hurt.the rules are there for our safety and we decide whether to follow or ignore them but we must all know there are consequences for our actions.
I do appreciate that you can argue your point intelligently even though our opinions differ.
As I've said, holding your arms up on a coaster is an extremely common thing. It's like making sandcastles when you go to the beach, for instance. A large number of people hold their arms up when they ride a coaster. And on the vast majority of coasters, it's not a danger. Clearly, however, there is a danger when it comes to this ride.
Now, since the danger posed on this ride is an uncommon danger when it comes to coasters, and doing something many people usually do while riding a coaster would cause on injury on that particular ride (again, an uncommon thing for coasters) then I don't think a simple warning sign is enough..especially for an issue that's easily fixable. That's all I'm saying.
After all, what percentage of the people who have posted in this thread do you think have never held their arms up on a ride? What percentage of them do you think would be surprised to suddenly find their arms broken from this activity?
-Nate
What I want to know is, HOW DID HE DO IT? Several people have pointed out that this ride has been running for decades without this kind of thing happening. I want to know what was the mechanism of injury. Because without that information, you really have no idea whether there is a design problem, or what! I mean, for all we know, this guy hand-slapped his buddy as the train was leaving the station...!
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
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