Locals perceive "death spiral" at Geauga Lake

The important thing for GL is -- Let it have its own identity. I believe that its proper niche would be as a park similar to Lake Compounce and not as Cedar Point Lite. Also, what if that highway gets built and KW raises the stakes? The waterpark will do fine if this happens because waterparks generally depend more upon the local population. Still, I would like to see more family rides at GL. Keep the remaining coasters including the three wood coasters. Add things like a darkride and some more flats. Some new shows might help too.

And I highly doubt that by now CF doesnt have 5 year plan for the park, the PP aqqusition proably accelerated the removal process. I am sure a few years downn the line theyll add a big attraction, but now they have room. And I am sure they will proably progressively add a bit each year to the water park side. CF parks are all about balance in attractions and Cap Ex it going to take a while to ge there, the name Geauga Lake is the brand, and changing the name back was the first step, changing the park is going to take longer.

When i got to work today I had a fun elevator ride up with three ladies i work with.

'Did you read the PD? Geauga Lake is closing'

I told them it wasn't closing and all they could say was:"well, it looks like it's closing. They're pulling coasters out, aren't they? Their water park looks like crap from 43, doesn't it???"

I told them the waterpark is on the old SEaWorld side and what they see from 43 is no longer used and hasn't been for 3 yrs now.

"why haven't they removed it?? That standing water must be a breeding ground for West Nile. No wonder they don';t like running the monorail."

I figured I'd ask them what park they liked best. they said Kennywood "Because it's less complicated." whatever that means.

Jeff, good point on the 2.1 million not necessarily being sustainable. I hadn't considered that.

However, I would be hard pressed to believe that 2.1 million wasn't profitable, even factoring in the massive amounts of attractions of all sorts that they had. I could very well be wrong, as I don't know the operating costs of the animal attractions, especially given the year-round attention they'd require, even though money's not exactly flowing in during the winter months.

Regardless, you're assuming that the 1 million plus is enough to generate a profit from the park. Think about it: that's half the people that SF was drawing in, but that would require the current operating costs to be less than half that of the WoA days. However, as previously mentioned, the additional months of operating costs for the animal attractions with no real revenue might require some serious $$ is quite possible, but I think the possibility needs to remain open that even 1 million isn't enough to get profit out of the place.

You have to admit, removing two large coasters certainly gives the impression the park is suffering. Even the quote in the article that "the park needed to reduce overhead costs and make adjustments to reflect visitation trends" sounds like bad news to someone just skimming the article.

I think the problem is they are removing two large rides but not offering anything to replace them. Yes, yes, they are offering two new shows, renovating a restaurant or two, and putting in more VIP cabanas (an additional charge, if I recall). But those new "additions" are not like seeing new slides or features in the water park, or another ride on the ride side. And they did make a big deal about the "second phase" of the water park but have said nothing since. Gotta wonder about that too.

I have no doubt the water park is popular (the water park is what is keeping MiA hopping during the summer). But they really need to install some new family rides to the ride side or at least announce when they plan to start on the already touted phase two of the water park if they want to change local perception.

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Regardless, you're assuming that the 1 million plus is enough to generate a profit from the park.

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That's not an assumption, that's a common sense conclusion based on the fact that several other CF parks are doing just that, today, and are built with a similar attraction lineup. That, and they did it pre-Six Flags makeover for decades.

I got no problem with the park reducing overhead cost such as high maintenance coasters the park cannot afford to maintain with it's current attendance situation.

What I have a problem with is the LESS IS MORE MENTALITY that NOBODY is going to buy into.

Sure, Remove the drop ride, flying coaster, monorail and SV but ADD SOMETHING DAMN IT! A good old spinny mouse or a few hundred thousand dollar flats to LIVEN IT UP! A good set of Flyers. YA KNOW?

I think a poster above was more right than Jeff is.

Why settle for 1 million? To get people to come, You gotta changed the perception. I got no problem with the idea of a family/affordable park but the ten dollar burgers and 4 dollar drinks don't exactly fit that plan either.

Chuck

So it was OK for Six Flags to live in this fantasy world where they could develop more than the market would allow, but if Cedar Fair doesn't try it they're making a bad decision?

They didn't develop more than the market would allow. Where do you get that? 2.4 ranks up with most major parks in the USA and marketed a little more, I think they could have topped 3 million. Not once did I see a SFWOA commercial or billboard in Cincinnati (Did anyone?)

SF's fantasy world was spending more than they could bear too doing it. and when the creditors wanted some cash. They had to do something. Same with Houston, Denver, Washington. Two of which are major markets.

Look at the article *Death Spiral* meaning the gist of the public is it's on the downward never ending slope.

Like I said, the water parks is different to me, While some would go for the water park and a few would include a couple hours of their day for it.

WHAT HAVE THEY DONE FOR THE PARK?

A. Remove 5 rides and add 0.

Hell they could swap a few with another park and get a feeling of something new and different in the park.

Thats all Im saying, As for now, what draws me too it?

I also don't think they are actively seeking group sales and picnic business like they should but thats just me.

Chuck

How much you want to bet that the same locals who are wringing their hands today crying that the park is dying will be the first complaining about all the extra traffic and noise once the park decides to start adding new attractions?

Jeff, you may think the locals are over-reacting but this is also not the kind of thing Cedar Fair needs people to think as they watch the rides come down. The GP, err the locals, don't see the industry in the way that we do. They see rides coming down, it's not looking good for the park, and in turn they'll just ask themselves why bother going to the park if it's just going to close?

As it has been stated time and time again, CF needs to get their act together and market the hell out this park if they want to draw people to it. If not then people will continue to look at the property in the mind set that has been displayed in that article.

It also probably doesn't help when you drive down Rte 43 where both of these coasters hugged the road and are no longer. On top of that, the old waterpark also butts up against this road which is abandoned and rotting.

It just visually gives the park a negative feeling to it.

I personally think CF should consider selling the ride side of the park, re-locate as many rides to the old Sea World side by the new waterpark, and re-package the experience on one side of the lake. They still seem to have plenty of unused land next to the new waterpark.

Make it a Michigans Adventure sized park.

The parks size is quite large... it takes a good 20 minutes maybe to go from one extreme end of the park to the other in an average walking speed without taking any shortcuts. It's large enough where they could definately use an investment on a real transportation ride (not a golf-kart).

...it's also large enough where they need to invest in the park & keep everything pretty much equal throughout. One end of the park that was bustling with a waterpark, monorail & many coasters has now faded into a desolate area with a rotting slide complex, dirty empty pools, and now open space left by removed coasters.

Should they put more rides there? Maybe. Should they at least cover it up with grass, trees, and some landscaping? Most definately. Even if it's for the short term... at least it gives the area a more polished look. That area of the park is going to be like a ghost-town. You could at least have a botanical garden which is low maintaince and pretty to walk through as something rather than nothing. In the near future, use that area for new attractions/relocated rides & so forth... but don't leave it empty. It looks like crap and gives the park a real ghetto feeling as if they don't give a rats-ass.

Chuck: I never saw a six flags commercial until they launched Mr. Six and that was the season after they sold SFWOA. I don't even think I heard a Radio commercial.

I saw updates on local news programs, and, of course, here, but that was pretty much it.

CF needs to make a name for itself like 6Flags, which everyone has heard of.

They've had three years to do something about the old waterpark dead-zone. I just wonder why that hasn't been done yet. You do get a ghetto feeling when you drive down 43.

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They didn't develop more than the market would allow. Where do you get that? 2.4 ranks up with most major parks in the USA and marketed a little more, I think they could have topped 3 million. Not once did I see a SFWOA commercial or billboard in Cincinnati (Did anyone?)

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Which part of this are you not getting? It was a short-term burst based on a massive capital plan. That's not sustainable. If you build four coasters in two years and acquire an adjacent park, that's enough to get anyone in to check out the place. That sure doesn't mean they'll keep coming back.

What have they done for the park? You're talking about removing rides and pretending they didn't spend $30 million on the water park. You're thinking like an enthusiast, Chuck.

I guess the locals aren't the only ones over-reacting. So are many of you.

Im thinking there are probably five waterparks in the Cleveland area and people who go there want to go to a amusement park. Sure the waterpark will get it's share, Look at Dorney but for the rides side to draw, Less isn't more to a guest, and thats not a enthusiast view of it.

Do I see other rides CF could remove from there? yeah! Texas Twister and that Double inverter both would do well for one of their other parks but for Geauga, They are way to big.

But see Jeff, The locals are what counts and WOW, Their view is the same as ours.

Chuck

Everyone says that the park got 2.1 million because of the animals, but what about just the fact that Six Flags put more rides in, and that they have had ownership? People are like, what are they doing to that park over there??? We want to see, and visit. They didn't like it that much, and didn't come back. The rides they put in didn't help!! X-Flight was at most iffy to me. It was also rough. It might have been slower than a B&M, but it was rough.

If it was Superman Ultimate Flight, that would have surely kept attendance. Steel Venom is at Cedar Point which was only 30 minutes away. It doesn't matter if that ride is good because Cedar Point has it anyway. Yes, they are different, but virtually the same. In my opinion, Villian was a bad ride they put in.

Dorney Park has something that Gaugea Lake doesn't. It has two B&Ms. It doesn't have an SLC either. That's worth it alone.

Do I think that the park will shutdown. To me, it seems so after a couple years or so. The park got rid of two rides that are somewhat good. Why retrack Raging Wolf Bobs, and instead get rid of that? That costs money too. How about Villian, or Double Loop? It's only going to get worse because they took those two rides out. In my opinion, it's a "rough" park. That's GL's problem. You also have the problem of walking all the way to the other side before, and saying, "Why should I walk to that other side?" At least they now have a waterpark.

By looking at what they have in there waterpark, they got ripped off paying 30 million. SFGAm paid 25 million, we have a lot more slides/complexes. I know "who needs me", but I wouldn't go there just for a waterpark. That looks small!!! People are going to go Cedar Point's waterpark instead. Dorney's park has tons and tons of water slides.

There are now ZERO other water parks in the Greater Cleveland area. They all closed.

Most people forget that the park pulled over 2 mil the year after purchasing SWO and never again. That was the first season of 5 that I worked at the park. I'll tell you the number 1 question/complaint i heard that season. Wheres SW? Or Where is Shamu? It was never really advertised to the GP that the parks combined outside the Cleveland area.

Then the attendance drop.

Second thing most people forget is that SFO pulled about 1.7 mil in 2000. SWO pulled about the same. Usually cause people going to one park wuld spend a second day at the other. In 01 the parks combined did over 2 mil but dropped back down to about 1.5 until 04 when the animals left. Since then the park has flatlined at 700.000. In agreement with Jeff, which doesnt happen to often(no offense), The park hit those high number due to random 1 time circumstances such as 4 new coasters or combining the park, which will never happen again. And the park, to have a successful season sould always peak at about 1.5 mil a year.

It's all about perception, just as Rob said. Over-reacting or not Jeff, it's the locals they are looking to in support of this park. They'd better change this perception that the park is on a downward spiral and QUICK.

Now I know why Mark Shapiro does so much damn press. To try and control and shape some of the public perception.