Kinzel hints at 2011 ride in Sandusky Register

No, I agree. I think we grossly overestimate the average person's expectations for an amusement park.

Jeff said:
WWL wasn't removed just to build Maverick, it was removed because it was falling apart and becoming a money suck. I imagine the cost-per-ride on that thing was astronomical.

I don't understand this argument. Smaller parks, like Kennywood, Knoebels and Waldameer seem to have no trouble maintaining and supporting their aging flumes. Heck, even (relatively) tiny parks like Camden and Martin's Fantasy Island somehow have the wherewithal to keep their log rides operating.

I have wondered about that as well. Fiberglass, especially in relatively flat shapes, is pretty easy to repair. It has conveyor belts but there isn't much to them either. And water pumps are basic as well. Where does the maintenance cost come in?

Smaller parks don't have the volume of rides to repair and maintain. WWL was approaching a world of wholesale replacement of the trough. The cave literally fell down. Also keep in mind that it was among the largest of its kind also, with a large portion above ground and no terrain to meet it.

Still, in the context of the park's overall maintenance effort, I can see the issue, especially given the shrinking off-season.

And smaller parks that don't do 3 million don't have as many people riding their flumes either. And even if a smaller park had to spend the same amount a larger park does, most often larger park's budgets are approved from a standpoint of them being part of a larger chain, with parks vying for cash, unlike a lot of smaller parks.

Ensign Smith said:
I don't understand this argument. Smaller parks, like Kennywood, Knoebels and Waldameer seem to have no trouble maintaining and supporting their aging flumes. Heck, even (relatively) tiny parks like Camden and Martin's Fantasy Island somehow have the wherewithal to keep their log rides operating.

Yeah, but so did CP right up until the end of the 2005 season. :)

Seems a little apples-to-oranges to me. It's a little like the 'everyone is different' discussion about park spending habits we recently had. Just because those parks are smaller and support their aging flumes doesn't mean it makes sense financially for Cedar Point to do the same.

djDaemon said:

LostKause said:
Was it worth it to remove a classic and popular log flume? To me, no.

Ummm... Have you ever ridden Maverick?!? ;)

Well considering he says he hasn't been to the park in 4 years, he couldn't have ridden it. Maverick opened 3 years ago. :)

Ha! I missed that. Sort of invalidates his opinion, in my opinion.

Ensign Smith said:
tiny parks like Camden and Martin's Fantasy Island somehow have the wherewithal to keep their log rides operating.

Camden's is a concrete trough that is below grade. WWL was a fiberglass trough that was up in the air. Big diference.

Jeff said:

Smaller parks don't have the volume of rides to repair and maintain.

They also have smaller revenue streams and operating budgets, yet somehow they persevere.

WWL was approaching a world of wholesale replacement of the trough.

It happens to all of them. Some parks choose to replace their rides' tracks, troughs, or infrastructure. In this case, CP chose not to.

The cave literally fell down.

The world's an imperfect place. Caves fall down.

But seriously, it's not like they made any attempt to fix or replace it (did they?) So it's sort of a moot point.

Also keep in mind that it was among the largest of its kind also, with a large portion above ground and no terrain to meet it.

Yes, and it was operating at an amusement park that is also among the largest of its kind, with many other rides that are also among the largest (and presumably, the most expensive) of their kinds -- but the park isn't ripping them out.

Still, in the context of the park's overall maintenance effort, I can see the issue, especially given the shrinking off-season.

Eh, I'm just not buying it. And that's okay. Not out on any witch hunt or crusade here; those just don't sound like particularly valid reasons to me to remove WWL. More likely, they just decided they needed a big, wide open tract of land, and ditching WWL made as much sense as any other location.

Let me just say it again (and update it) in case it was missed. :)

"Just because those parks are smaller and support their aging flumes doesn't mean it makes sense financially (or for any reason, really) for Cedar Point to do the same."

"Because other parks do it" isn't a reason CP should've or could've kept WWL around.

Jason Hammond said:

Camden's is a concrete trough that is below grade

Wait. So, you're saying, there's a trough, made of concrete, that's dug into the ground? That's unheard of on "real" flume rides.

Oh The Horror!

Lord Gonchar said:

Just because those parks are smaller and support their aging flumes doesn't mean it makes sense financially for Cedar Point to do the same.

And those aging flumes aren't going to last forever. Just because those parks haven't removed them doesn't mean they won't eventually be removed.

And then replaced with Intamin 'flumes'. :)

Mamoosh, why should they, if they're still popular? I see no evidence that the GP is abandoning them in droves.

But I think the idea is that the cost-per-ride continually increases over time, and eventually the parks hit a break-point where they consider the cost of continuous repairs/maintenance to be higher than the value gained from trying to keep the ride around....

Seems like some of you must be driving around your first car from the 60s/70s and just shelling out exorbitant amounts of money every month or so in order to keep your "classic" car running in pristine condition... ;)

I'm as big a "nostalgist" as anyone here....but those troughs are showing their age.

***Also forced to wonder if some of the epoxies and resins originally used in construction/repair might not be available to use due to environmental concerns...

Using Kennywood's Log Jammer as a shining example of a well maintained flume is a mistake. That thing bashes its way violently through the trough and the last drop jack hammers worse than some wood coasters I have been on.

Ensign, that's why you get rid of it and build an Intamin, or something else new...Kinda like what CP did.

I know, right? I was thinking the same thing, 8.3.