Kennywood needs a big boost in the future??

I dunno, I was at GL the Saturday before last, and K-Wood the Sunday following. Based on what I know about weekend traffic at parks, I'd say it's a one-way street between Da Wood and Geauga....for now, anyway.

K-Wood is *definitely* in Geauga Lake's pockets, pretty sure there's not much going on in the reverse direction...;)

"At Kennywood, just southeast of Pittsburgh, the annual turnstile count has been stuck at 1.3 million since the late 1990s. "

There's your facts.

LOL, I hardly knew my responses would draw such a heated debate.

I have to say I am a bit flabberghasted at the attacks on me as a person. I hardly think I directed any sort of negative comment toward any individual person, but boy I sure got roasted... innapropriately, by those that actually do not know me. Let's try and rise above personal attacks please and keep this on a mature level.

Aside from that, I stand by my opinion.

I was asked by some non-enthusiast friends who reside in Pittsburgh if I "had ever been to Kennywood." They know *of* my interest in parks and coasters which prompted their questioning. When I responded with a "Yes, many times, how about you?" they said "Well, we stopped going a few years ago because we got tired of all the same old stuff... they never add anything new."

Now that is their perception, not mine.

But if the general public... Kennywood locals... and Pittsburgh natives... have that sort of a reaction, then that is cause for concern. It raises the age old question... "are classic attractions worth it?"

Locals DEVOUR the history of Kennywood. It truly is one of the hearts of PA. However it brings to mind that old addage about the arts... "A person can fall in love with it... but it has to be in their heart... others can learn to respect and appreciate it... but it will never become part of their soul."

I guess I don't have a Kangaroo in my heart.

Playa made a great point... he said:

"Frankly, KW isn't alone in maintaining rides for which parts are no longer available. The same is true of corporate theme parks. A ride doesn't have to be 50-70 years old...try 20 or 25."

This is ABSOLUTELY true... but what we are seeing is an increase in parks removing classic attractions/areas for modern installations with marketability. Those that are doing so, although it's sad to see, are experiencing better response.

If you must compare two parks with very lengthy and distinct history... look at CP and KW. KW has very much held true to it's roots... a highly respectable thing. CP, although steeped in history... has VERY little remaining that harkens back to it's past. I am not saying either is right, or either is wrong.

But indications are (and this recent article exhemplifies it) that there are concerns over dwindling revenue and attendance at KW.

It's a confusing trap. Non-increases, yet increasing park operating costs mean a lowered or compromised profit margin. Lowered profit margins mean lowered or eliminated capitol expenditure budgets. Low capitol expenditure budgets mean a loss in marketability of new product for the future season. A loss in marketability results in stalled gates once more. Very cyclical.

So how do you solve that problem?

KW is obviously smarter than I even pretend to be... they have been at it for 106 years. But heck, even I can see that of late they have been hit hard with some lean years. Many, many, many parks have.

Shaggy *** Edited 6/7/2005 2:48:46 PM UTC by Shaggy***

'Stuck' at 1.3 million?

Let's put that in perspective...

-The smaller three CF parks (in terms of attendance) would peak at 1.3 million

-WOF's B&M will probably pull its numbers over a million for the first time in years

-HW's 13.5 million expansion will doubtless pull it over the million mark

-VF's added a hyper, Intamin Impulse and S&S tower while 'stuck' with a 1.0 - 1.2 million annual attendance

-The KW folks still had the means to purchase LC while hog-tied to those attendance numbers

True, they aren't PKI numbers or CP numbers. But numbers that seal some sort of 'fate' for them? Put them in a bind? Hardly.

-'Playa

Well, I am not even remotely thinking that there is some sort of doomsday ahead for KW. They'll do just fine.

But I would believe that seeing a non increase in attendace could very much concern a park, never mind how attendance is rated at other parks across the nation.

Shaggy

I think the point is: After 106 years of Kennywood not adding something major ever year/every other year that they're still pulling in a number higher than parks that haven't been around as long and aren't adding major things every year. I could be wrong, but that was how I took it.

Exactly. And if you can pull in steady numbers without huge cap ex budgets or massive discounting because your park has atmosphere and personality? I'd have to call that an enviable position.

-'Playa

But is it in the park's eyes?

Isn't the name of the game to earn more money and increase attendance?

Shaggy

And regardless, I haven't been to Kennywood in about 2 years. I'm hopefully going in 2 weeks. I can't wait to see the new enterance, already seen pix, and it is much nicer than the other one. Looks more classy, looks like it has been there for years.

Kennywood will get at least one extra person there this year they dont' normally get, and that is without any new ride.

Clint, just as excited about seeing the new gate, B.

I agree with you about the gate... I actually think it looks terrific, and suits the park very, very well.

Shaggy

Shaggy, I hope you didn't take my responce as a personal attack, You have your reasons for seeing things the way you do. I just happen to dissagree.

My TR on KP is on the TR board and interesting things to point out from it are. We ate at KP three times X Ten people Bought four or five drinks each X ten people. At the bigger parks, They are lucky if I eat once or buy any drinks due to pricing. Now I ask you, Someone buying Three drinks at 200% profit or someone buying 1 drink at 400% profit. Which park wins? Clearly the Three at 200%.

It's the same reason I'll buy 2 T shirts at HW for 12.95 at Holiday World verses BUYING NONE at CP for 18.95. WHo wins? HW!

Attendance isn't the only determining factor in profitablity. Marketing Campaigns also cost millions. I don't see KP Billboards, Commercials and flyers in my mail the way CP does. And KP maintains 1.3 million visitors while CP adds a hundred thousand. Some of that profit is gone purely from the cost of getting the people to come.

We can numbers crunch all day, But in my mind the sustainable, Affordable option is gonna win everytime. KP adds when it can afford to to improve its park and keep people comming. CP adds just to get them to visit.

Chuck

The new infrastructure WAS needed, DOES look great, and can serve as a springboard for the next new attraction.

Myself, I'm looking forward to seeing Bayern Kurve back up and operating, LOL...

P.S. All those *other* parks 'Playa mentioned....they all have season passes.

P.P.S. To Shaggy....don't take the attacks personally, oftentimes the "staunch defenders" get carried away when it's *their park* being critiqued. I may not agree with you 100% on all points, but your criticisms DO have merit. For instance, stagnant attendance figures should be a concern....*declining* attendance is when it becomes a serious problem.

Shaggy's observations are about an amusement PARK (albeit a great one IMO), not about yer momma....simma. ;)

i just have to say, another reason why KW doesn't add coasters every other year or more often, is because of the limited space that they have. They had to take out a ride just to make room for the new ride thats coming in next year. If KW had a lot more space, they would be happy to put in new coasters. I did hear that they bought or are thinking about buying the land behind the Exterminator though.

Gator adds a little more veracity to the 'attendance in context' point. The weekly (or in some cases daily) visitors on season passes are quite likely bringing in fewer dollars per visit.

Shaggy, I never said you're ugly or your mother dresses you funny (Okay--until just then ;)); I'm just bringing up the reasons I see it differently.

-'Playa

*** Edited 6/7/2005 3:35:53 PM UTC by CoastaPlaya***

PGH Steeler, Get yourself to places like IB and others. Space isn't a problem in adding rides, However it might be a concern at maintaining atmosphere.

Chuck

Yes, Shaggy, I also want to say that, even though I disagree with some of your points, I still respect you and your views.

Even if you are from KY...

;)

"Even if you are from KY..."

LOL, just reside here... not FROM here. I'd never claim that ;-)

Oh and Playa... You in no way offended me... well until the Mom comment ;-)

Shaggy *** Edited 6/7/2005 4:12:03 PM UTC by Shaggy***

Shaggy :

Kennywood doesn't own LC, they manage it.

I don't think it was wise to bring up a topic such as this seeing that PGH_Steeler, beeman, kpjb, myself, and i'm sure many others are employees at the company and would bash you to death. It's like bringing up a Six Flags vs. Cedar Fair topic. This is just something that no one brings up because it makes no sense to bring it up. Cedair Fair is spending over 20 mln on a new waterpark for GL and attendance won't go much over the 1 mln mark - and they have 10 freakin' coasters! I can't tell you how many people were upset about not being able to ride the B-Kurve this year. Classic rides like that mean alot to the people that visit KW on a yearly basis. Not to mention that attendance is on the rise at on of it's sister parks Idlewild. Kennywood knows what there doing and will continue this success for many years to come. I'm sorry to be so harsh earlier in this post, but something like this just hits home for some reason. I plan on being with the company for many, many years to come, and like to defend that park as much as SF & CF fanboys do. Ok.... nuff said....

P.S. Kennywood has plenty of room.

*** Edited 6/7/2005 4:14:35 PM UTC by razore86***

I think if they wanted to build another thrill ride & coaster then they could think about buying the land next to the exterminator.

I was also told that the "Kennywood Shoppe" plaza above the parking lot is also owned by the company. As well as the space where the old Pizza Hut used to be. Space is only a problem if you make it one.

"I don't think it was wise to bring up a topic such as this seeing that PGH_Steeler, beeman, kpjb, myself, and i'm sure many others are employees at the company and would bash you to death."

Well, I didn't bring the topic up. The person that started the post did. I just continued the discussion by expressing my opinions.

Let's clarify your statement above. Are you saying I should not post my opinions? If the topic of Kennywood comes up, can someone not post unless it's a glowing review for fear of being (your word) "bashed?" Sorry you feel that way, but it's an open forum and people are going to disagree from time to time.

I am as entitled to post them as much as you are. And I will continue to do so about Kennywood or any other park I wish to discuss.

Heck, I am a die-hard PKI supporter. But I recognize that not all people love, or even like the place. I recognize their opinions, and sometimes I disagree... sometimes I agree. But no matter what negative or positive opinion someone may have over a park, it does not entitle me to call their character into question. That is rude, and unnaceptable in any walk of life.

Moving on...

Shaggy