Kennywood, June 16 - CPLady Style
Associated parks:
None
Arthur Bahl
Lord Gonchar said:I've always believed that selling less product at a higher margin is vastly superior to selling more product at lower margins.
Not necessarily. Of course we would need to crunch the numbers for each item, but this is definately NOT a true statement in today's marketplace for many commodities. With competition the prices drop and your margins shrink, fact of business.
In my business we operate on the whole sell more at a smaller margin philosophy and we do quite well. Our prodcut isn't stagnant because we're waiting for that one sucker to come in that doesn't have a clue to what he's buying and what it's actually worth.
You also have to factor in whether the product you're selling is actually yours or whether or not it's being financed. This doesn't matter in the large corporate world, but it's a fact of life for many fmall family owned businesses.
But the amusement parks don't operate in this business environment. They are more like your sporting facilities and concert venues. Once you're inside their gates, what are your options? Not many, and therefore they can charge just about whatever they want for food and drinks.
What else are you really going to do? Go without food and beverages? Some might, but most would rather satiate that hunger and thirst regardless of cost. Go out to the parking lot or a nearby restaurant? Some people take this option as well, but then your value for your park admission goes down as you're spending more time eating than you would if you just forked over the money in the first place.
I know we agree on that last part, but it's because of the limited options that parks can charge rediculous prices for services within their parks. This just doesn't hold true in most industries.
I'd much rather own a Saks Fifth Avenue store than a Wal-Mart. :)
Apples and oranges, I suppose, but whatever.
I still shop at Target over Wal-Mart.
And I really don't see it as "That One Sucker" - there are lots of reasons I'd personally pay more than I necessarily have to for something.
Convenience - If I'm driving along and get thirsty, I don't look for a Wal-Mart or something to grab a Dew. I stop at a gas station and pay $2. The 50 cents of a buck, just doesn't matter. Just get me a drink.
Quality of Experience - This is the main reason I shop at Target and not Wal-Mart. I'd easily save a few bucks at Wal-Mart, but I'd be in the standard crowded, messy, annoying store. I prefer Target's less crowded, neater, less stressful shopping experience.
Quality of Experience II - For more high ticket items like autos, furniture and electronics, if I find something I like am generally ok with the price and like the people I'm dealing with, I'm not going to drive all over town making sure I save a few bucks. Offer decent service and I'll play the game. Conversely, if I hate the situation I'm in, I'll walk - even if I'm getting a deal.
Quality of Product - If two widgets were sitting side by side on a shelf in the store and I needed a widget, I'd compare them. I'd be inclined to buy the $20 widget that is made solid, looks long lasting and is stylish over the ultilitarian $3 model that is kind of ugly and cheap looking - even if in the end they both met my needs equally.
Heck, I pay $20 a year to use this website when there are plently of free options out there (including this site :) ) - some even offering more overall. But I like the people here, I like the manner of discussion, I like the experience. I feel it's worth the money.
This probably explains why I have such a hard time with this whole cost thing. If you ask me, there's more to the the buying process than cost. That's not to say, if you're nice to me you can rip me off. But a fair price and high service and/or convenience will beat the lowest price and crap service/inconvenience every time.
...that one sucker to come in that doesn't have a clue to what he's buying and what it's actually worth.
See, I don't even believe things really have a value. People put the value on items. Eveything is worth something different to each individual.
A good example is the use of this site as a paying member. Same with a lot of the websites that have a donate button. Some will never donate, some will donate a buck, some will donate $10. It's all about what the experience/product is worth to the individual. Are the people paying when they don't have to really suckers? I say no. I think this line of throught translates to real world items as well.
But like you said, parks have a captive audience. You either play the game or you don't. It just seems like such a hassle to me to try to play around that game - especially when the game is the same across the board. I really don't see visiting amusement parks as that much of a hassle.
I'm sure we're still oversimplifying the whole discussion, but I think if price was the only thing that mattered, then the cheapest of anything would win everytime and that's just not how it works.
*** Edited 7/1/2006 6:05:40 PM UTC by Lord Gonchar***
Saks vs. Walmart? Do either of us actually know their markups? I don't and I assume you don't either. But they're selling completely different levels of goods. Sure Saks is more expensive, but that's because there is a supposed quality that you are buying (or at least a name brand). But the mark-up COULD be the same. It's just that 20% of $100 is more $$$ than 20% of $20.
Convenience of course plays a huge role. That's why I generally don't complain about prices of amusement park services. My time equals money. If I spent x numbers of dollars to get into a park, I expect a certain level of satisfaction to make me feel like that expenditure was worth it. The more time I spend looking for ways to shave a couple of bucks off the total means less time I have riding the rides (which for most parks is why I'm there to begin with). Convenience is worth something, but I don't do my grocery shopping at 7-11 either.
I mostly agree with you on the quality of experience as well. Our business is one that is successful because we offer exceptional service and people love that. But customer loyalty isn't what it used to be, therefore we have to be competitive on our prices. Every week we get several customers that drove well over an hour, right past several of our biggest competitors, to buy our product because we offer the best price in town.
So while you might not drive around town to get the best deal on a high-priced item, I think most people at least make sure they're not spending sufficiently more than they have to. Because even if you choose to shop at Target over Wal-Mart, you're still not spending premiums for the majority of the items that they sell.
In your stopping in for a quick drink example. There are usually plenty of gas stations/convenience marts to choose from. So if you knew that one of them offered their 20oz. bottle of Pepsi for twice what the one across the street did, you wouldn't make a conscious decision to go for the cheaper one if all else is equal (access, cleanliness, polite employees and no loyalties on your part)?
I know my way isn't the right way. Both systems work, but some are clearly more successful in certain markets/situations. I am just trying to combat what I took as a statement that your theory was in fact the correct one in all circumstances.
Besides, we both agree on the substance of this thread.
What I especially agree with is not comparing like items. I admit some of those were a bit of a stretch.
But no more so (im my eyes) as comparing Coney Island in Cincy to PKI. Or HW to CP or PKI. Or Knoebels to Six Flags.
Those smaller parks charge what they do because they can't charge more. (and this is exactly what Incidentalist is getting into)
The fact that these smaller parks offer less is a big factor in their pricing.
Although, I still wouldn't make a conscious effort to hit the convenience store with the cheaper soda (assuming all things being equal) - I'd probably stay on my side of the street if they were on opposite sides (making the left across traffic sucks) and if they were side by side on the same side of the street, I'd just pull into one. Really, the dollar doesn't matter. If I got lucky, great. If not, great. I probably wouldn't know either way.
Then again, the last two new cars we bought, we purchased at the first place we stopped. What did we base our choice of dealer on? The closest Nissan dealer to us. (and if you knew how little price research I did, you'd be calling me sucker :) )
*** Edited 7/1/2006 7:27:50 PM UTC by Lord Gonchar***
The small parks charging less goes exactly to what I was saying about my time = money. Since I pay less to gain access to said park, the level of entertainment/fun necessary for me to feel like I got my monies worth is also less. That's why I spend more time 'hanging out' at smaller parks and take time to enjoy the classic carnival rides that I tend to not even notice at a place like CP.
The big parks cost more and are generally far more crowded. That means that I have to spend more time in line to ensure that I get the level of rides that's going to make me feel like my entry fee wasn't a ripoff. That's why I pay the high food prices of a CP, PKI, SF park. If I want to get the number of rides that I want, I don't have time to run out to the car every time I need a drink.
Honestly I'm not really that anal when I'm at a park. I don't consciously analyze how many rides I need on each coaster to end up satisfied at the end of the day. It's just that there is something to paying $40+ to go to a 'mega' park and spend 6+ hours in line to get a total of 8 rides over the course of the day. Whereas a 'crowded' day at a smaller park allows far more rides (although possibly not as thrilling or state of the art) for less money up front.
Out of all the enthusiast's on this board, I probably visit parks less than the vast majority. Therefore I really don't mind splurging for my few visits every year. I still end up visiting the smaller parks more often because I feel like I get a better value for my dollar. That and the fact that I generally hate crowds. *** Edited 7/1/2006 7:50:17 PM UTC by Incidentalist***
Seriously, for the price of eating a chicken dinner at some of these parks I can eat in a five star restaurant at Indiana Beech or eat four times in a day at the various venues there.
The big parks cost more and are generally far more crowded. That means that I have to spend more time in line to ensure that I get the level of rides that's going to make me feel like my entry fee wasn't a ripoff...Out of all the enthusiast's on this board, I probably visit parks less than the vast majority.
Kind of condensed the two ideas into one. :)
I'd say out of all the enthusiast on this board I ride a lot less than the vast majority.
So money spent vs rides means very little to me.
So why am I at the park? I dunno, I just dig parks, hanging out, eating crap food, playing games with the kids, letting them ride, catching some coasters and calling it a day.
For example, at BeastBuzz we got a total of 13 cycles on 8 different rides over 16 hours at the park. Of that, 10 cycles on 5 rides were ERT. We rode not a single thing from noon until after closing.
I paid $180 just for the four of us to get in the gate.
The verdict? One of the funnest days the family has had at the park in a while - and everyone agreed.
If you're anal enough to break down the per ride cost - well, that's $3.50 a ride per person assuming we all rode for 13 cycles which we didn't. Fortunately, there's much more to the 'value' of such a trip to me (and apparently the rest of the family)
Then if I estimated how much got spent on games, food and drink...yeesh.
So here's the flip side. (again, just for my personal situation)
I go to a small park. Pay half the price for the four of us to get in. We do a few rides here and there as is customary (probably even more than at a big park as you guys are saying), play a game or three, catch as show, eat. Now what? I've 'done' the park in a couple of hours. At a bigger park, we browse shops, just circle the different areas of the park, catch multiple shows, character greets, people watch, jump in short lines, get photos - basically there's a lot more to do.
That's not to say I find the smaller parks to be a bad value - I think they're spot on. Less money to do less.
And to try to put this back into the pricing and business approach...PKI got a lot of our money that day because they were able to keep us in the park. That captive audience thing.
Seriously, for the price of eating a chicken dinner at some of these parks I can eat in a five star restaurant at Indiana Beech or eat four times in a day at the various venues there.
And this is the perfect example. IB kept us for the afternoon. We ate, checked things out, rode a bit, did the Haunted House, but were 'done' by the time the day session ended at 6pm. Sure eating there four times would have been the same as the price of one meal at a big park, but there was no reason to. (I'm not just buying food or drink because it's cheap, I have to actually want it.)
Not only did the park miss out on my money because there prices were lower, they also lost out because I left earlier. Double whammy. The opposite is true of my visit to PKI - we paid for more things and we paid more for them because they kept us oocupied for the entire day.
Tuesday when we do the Coney/Wonderpark/Stricker's thing, I can guarantee none of those parks will see much of our money. Why? We'll be in and out too quick. Just knowing our patterns and what these places offer - there's not enough to keep us in the gate for an extended time and spending more cash.
Again, I think it's the enthusiast mentality of 'ride, ride, ride' that changes perspective. I think many would be surprised at how little an actual family really rides in a day. I'm not saying we're the example, because I know we ride less than most, but people are at parks for various reasons and aside from the demographic that makes up hardcore riders (though I'm sure there's more than a few of those), people are finding entertainment in many different ways other than rides - especially in the mixed demographics of a family visit situation.
ThenI realized, THAT'S when I take the time to ride *ubiquitous* flatrides and such. At the bigger corporates, they are typically run on pre-set programs and are less forceful/interesting, so I more likely stick to coasters and *rare* flats (and dark rides!). At the smaller parks, I'd like to ride their Scrambler, for instance. More likely to be an Eli, AND it can be run to the tastes of the guests... :)
Plus, since I feel less *pushed* by crowds and lines, etc., it's easier to sit down with an ice cream cone in a shady spot...esp. when there's landscaping and TREES..... ;)
rollergator said:
Then I realized, THAT'S when I take the time to ride *ubiquitous* flatrides and such.
Yup. I find it's very easy to fill a day at most medium- to small-sized parks just by taking the time to ride the very flatrides I usually have to rush past at the larger parks.
--Greg
"You seem healthy. So much for voodoo."
Gonch, you currently have a family and pleasing your children doesn't necessarily have a price. Right now I don't have any kids, although that will be changing VERY soon. ;) As of right now I only look at what I want and whether it's worth the price for me (especially considering that my wife is not an enthusiast).
I can understand how a parent can overlook how much a visit to a park cost when seeing your child's expressions of riding a coaster for the first time or the joy of experiencing one of countless other things that they get to do at a park. BUT I've also seen kids play for hours on end with something that costs absolutely nothing. A child's pleasure isn't necessarily related to the dollars spent to obtain that experience for the child. They aren't paying for it and most kids I've known don't care what it costs as much as their parents. Your kids could have had just as much fun at a public park playing on the playground, fishing, or whatever. Then again, maybe not.
Basically I'm just calling fowl for throwing your kids into the mix (it's not fair!). ;)
I still end up at the small parks more often then the large ones. The last two years I lived outside of Denver. I visited SFEG once a year and Lakeside several times each season. Lakeside definately got more of my money, although they got it in smaller doses. While I may not be able to make a day out of Lakeside I couldn't make one out of SFEG either.
On the other hand, I have no trouble at all spending a full day at HW, KW, IB, and Mt. Olypus to name a few. To each their own.
Off topic: Which part of Ohio did you move to? I lived in both Springfield and Columbus for several years and mostly enjoyed my time there. I hope the Buckeye state treats you and your family well.
(Besides, we've been to so many parks that in all honesty, it's not that 'special' of a thing to my jaded kids - it's just what we do)
Actually, I stress the family thing because I think solo enthusiasts don't realize how much even the 'cheap' parks cost to hit.
I'll use tomorrow's plans for example:
Coney Island:
*Ride All Day Bracelet x 4 = $39.80
*Parking = $6.00
That's $45 just to get in the gate. (from the sounds of it, I'm guessing some here wouldn't spend $45 in a day at Coney)
Then we're off to Stricker's:
*Ride All Day x 4 = $51.00
*Parking = $4
That's $55 just to play at Stricker's. Now we're up to $100 total.
Then we also plan on hitting WonderPark inbetween stops. Not sure if we'll stick around Stricker's for the fireworks or head back towards home for fireworks fun - plan on playing it by ear.
I'm liking the idea of hitting three new-to-us spots and coming in at probably around $200 for the day. That's good stuff. :)
I think you can probably guess where I'm going with this. :)
So how does a family of 4 do at the 'big' parks? Use just nice round numbers of $40 a head to get in and $15 to park.
You're at $175 just to get in. Suddenly $3 for a drink means nothing in the big scheme of things.
I still stand by the original assessment that this is just the price to play and family types know this. That's probably why PKI will have three times the paid attendance of Coney & Stricker's combined tomorrow. (even though it'll cost people three times as much to visit)
Off topic: We're in the Dayton area. :)
Got to Coney Island right at noon. Wife saw the size of the park, confirmed I would ride with the kids if needed and opted out of riding. We scored three wristbands. (parking + wristbands = $35.85)
I'd list the rides we rode, but it'll be quicker to list what we didn't ride. What we didn't ride was:
Ferris Wheel
Bumper Boats
Round-Up
Trabant
Paddle Boats
We collectively rode everything else in the park at least once and as many as five times. We even spent 10 or 15 minutes letting the kids nose around that little area of tiny houses and stuff.
There were only a handful of games and the kids wanted to save it for WonderPark, so no games.
We got two child-size souvenir cups/dinks for the kids and regular drinks for ourselves. ($10.61) We also stopped and snagged a handful of postcards and took a few moments to look at all the photos on the wall. ($3.50)
We were in the car pulling out of the parking lot before 2pm. There just wasn't anything else to do short of riding the same rides over and over again.
Total spent at Coney Island: $49.96 in less than 2 hours.
We arrived at Cincinnati Mills a little after 2:30. We ened up parking and entering the mall on the opposite side as WonderPark. Checked out a store or two along the way and scored lunch in the food court. Got to WonderPark at 3:45.
We checked things out. No one wanted to ride anything (one thing we aren't is credit whores - told you we rode less than the average enthusiasts) and the kids were more interested in playing games. We got $20 worth of tokens. Played a little of everything. Took part in the mandatory 'tickets for trinkets' program as we left and were on our way to Stricker's by 5pm.
Total spent at WonderPark: $20.00 in an hour or so
Arrived at Stricker's about 20 minutes later, parked and entered the park. Upon seeing just how small it was, realized that wristbands weren't necessary. $20 scored 26 tickets. (parking + tickets = $24)
26 tickets got me and the kids a lap on both coasters, took all four of us on the train and the other 13 tickets the kids & wife used to ride every other ride in the park between the three of them with the exception of the Ferris Wheel and Tilt-A-Whirl.
We scored drinks ($4), Cotton Candy ($2) and and ear of corn ($1).
By 7:15 we had done it all. Our choices were stick around almost three hours for fireworks or head back home for fireworks. We left.
Total spent at Stricker's Grove: $31.00 in less than 2 hours
Total spent at all three stops: $100.96
---
We had a blast - every stop was very enjoyable. We rode every ride all three stops had to offer with the exception of a total of 10 (5 at Coney, 3 at WonderPark, 2 at Stricker's) and some of those were duplicates anyway. We pretty much did it all.
I just don't see how it's physically possible to spend more at these small places than you do at the big places.
-$100 wouldn't even get us into HW in July - with discounts!
-On drinks and food? We'd have had to bought 4x the drink and food that we do at the big parks to spend more! The parks didn't offer enough to keep us there more than a couple of hours, let alone long enough to buy 4x the grub.
-Games? It's a little harder to lure the kids with the "throw a dart at a poster" game, than it is to lure them to a game by lining the area with some oversized plush animals. My kids barely looked twice at the games.
That's not to say a lot of fun wasn't had for the money. It was a great day at a ridiculous value. But then again, I have little motivation to return to any of these places as there wasn't a lot (anything?) that I feel the need to do again that I can't get elsewhere. (often in bigger and better form)
Sure, we did ride every little flat and kiddie ride that we normally wouldn't at a large, crowded park, but there still wasn't enough to keep us around. In fact, there's not much left to bring us back.
Sticking with the geographical market - PKI is a much better value for us with the better coaster choices, state-of-the-art flats, multiple quality shows, Nick Universe, etc. We can spend and enitre day there and still leave wanting more. The experience justifies the price.
EDIT - I think faster than I type. :)
*** Edited 7/5/2006 5:42:00 PM UTC by Lord Gonchar***
If I am out of town to a new park or a park I rarely get to visit I usually look for the local favorites, whether it's in the park or a well-known local restaurant. The Travel Channel helps. ;) I have been to Da Burgh a zillion times and still haven't tried Primanti's Bros.
The exception would be PKI. Skyline still hasn't really caught on with me after all these years. Probably never will. ;) I know LaRosa's is a local fave but it's....OK.
Oh, awesome TR, Lady! ;) I love the pics! Glad you finally got to Kennywood! I almost forgot this was a TR when they started talking about food. :)
-Tina
*** Edited 7/6/2006 1:19:57 PM UTC by coasterqueenTRN***
New to the southwestern OH area and heard nothing but raves on LaRosa's. Have tried it twice so far. Probably won't be trying it again.
Still haven't managed to try Skyline yet.
You must be logged in to post
