Kennywood expansion plan...whats going to happen?

I doubt an impulse would be a good buy since the locals are mostly well aware of the presence of one just an hour and a half away. Now, that didn't stop the Point, but they also are all about tallest/fastest, which Kennywood isn't (mostly). I'd give an Anton shuttle even less of a chance ... not only because I too don't "get" Antons (heck, I do my best to avoid all of them), but because #1 it was there before and people would think they recycled a ride that's old and old = unsafe and #2 one of the main reasons cited for Phantom's demise was the dislike for loops. I wouldn't bet on anything short of a B&M if we're ever to see loops at Kennywood ever again.

And no worries about an SLC - it's already been considered and rejected, and those that know of it's near-birth at the park and know the legend of the hang-n-bang have made it VERY clear to Kennywood the folly of that decision. So, don't expect an SLC anytime soon either.

I would bet on the Setpoint over the Rapids, an indoor waterpark and a GCI twister down into the ravine behind Racer by 2010.

Wouldnt mind a GCI twister but theres 3 woodies there already..Granted, theyre all old classic ones, but i think a B&M would be well-received by the GP as well as enthusiasts. B&Ms are expensive but I think theyre worth every penny for a painless, enjoyable looping coaster. Just my opinion. I would love to see a B&M at KW.

Why are those Setpoints so expensive though?

If they could get their price down to a more reasonable level, they'd be in virtually every park. As it is, it's a surprisingly large inve$tment....not that they ain't worth it...

Probably because of all of the piping and such that has to go into it. Not only are you piping and wiring for both a coaster and a water ride, you have to be sure those two are separate, cause water + electricity usually ain't good! That and in addition to the water effects just on the ride, there's always pretty extensive theme that goes along with those rides. I think there's so little to the real "ride", you have to go absolutely all out on the theme which just makes it go cha-ching cha-ching cha-ching.

I don't think you'll see the B&M until the last few people move out of the neighborhood behind Exterminator. A few of those homes have already fallen to the wrecking ball - once they all do, there's a nice wide open plot with a nice ravine off the edge that would provide a great staging area for a nice Talon-ish + Terrain B&M.

Gator, I'll add that the capacity of a Setpoint is also a negative as well, but that didn't stop Hersheypark or IOA. I would still like to see one at Kennywood though, because I got to work at P-Fliers for a few months and I know how much people (even adults) really love the ride.

JR, B&M's ARE worth every penny, if you are the kind of park that can afford it. I'm guessing that a less expensive off the shelf designed B&M would still cost a lot more than Kennywood has ever paid for a new attraction. Considering the terrain and/or building around the existing layout of the park would add even more to the cost of a coaster, I do not see a B&M in their future...But I could be way off.

Unless the Setpoint ride gets built, I wouldn't look at a major steel coaster as being the next coaster you'll see at Kennywood. Wood's cheaper and more easily adapted to the terrain of the new land (note: the new land is essentially another gigantic ravine... ideally suited for a coaster and not much else). While the Pittsburgh general public may cry for a steel looper, to deliver one in anything less than modern, smooth form would be a mistake, and unfortunately the current price of just about any incarnation of a modern, smooth looper is very high, while the cost of a wooden coaster of even the largest size is low in comparison. Plus, look how well Boulder Dash was received at Lake Compounce (Kennywood sister park). On top of that, it positively warms my heart to see Kennywood on the client list of The Gravity Group. It's a pipe dream for now but I could totally see the boys at TGG being on friendly terms with the Kennywood Entertainment folks, and I can imagine nothing better for all that nice steep land than the Voyage, volume II. We'll have to wait and see though... I doubt very much that whatever Kennywood's expansion plans turn out to be will be anything less than phenomenal.

Just my 2 cents:

I think KW is done with loopers - they've had two, they've removed two. It's not in the style of the park, and it's not a necessity to the parks survival or sucess.

I'd keep my eyes on S&S - they've got their foot in the door with Kennywood with the addition of the Screaming Swings coming to both KW and LC. Plus, LC added the S&S drop tower last year which has been a sucessful addition.

S&S can offer both wood and steel, and is really making strides to become a forceful player in the coaster market.

- I don't think KW is going to plop down 12+ million for a B&M (which is the baseline price for a Batman clone) and I'm pretty sure that whatever KW does it would have to be custom simply to encompass their land/neighbor situation which is going to cost a lot more - and they've thankfully dismissed the SLC idea

- they've been burned a couple times by Intamin so I can't see them going down that route again.

-Is Morgan even in the game any more?

I don't think we'll know anything till late summer/early fall regardless.

Jim

For what it's worth, I've been hearing rumors of a Boulder Dash-style wood coaster at Kennywood for years now- perhaps something that would have skirted the back of the park behind the train tracks. With some new land opening up, maybe that kind of coaster will finally become a reality.

I don't know if I'd ever count out a looping coaster at Kennywood- from what I understand, Lazer Loop was extremely popular and seems to be one of those rides that was lost to progress because the park felt they could replace it with something bigger and better (the ill-fated Steel Phantom). A B&M coaster that utilizes the terrain would be nice but I'm thinking that a B&M might be a little too expensive for the park right now or in the near future. I think it's Kennywood that pays "cash" for everything they build (instead of putting themselves into debt to expand) and after all the land acquisitions, they might be a little short on funds for a few years. I'd bet on a big, modern steel looper (of some variety) but I wouldn't bet on it for another 8 or 10 years.

How has intamin burned Kennywood?

The only thing *I* know of is that K-Wood bought one of those 2nd-generation drops, and they DO seem to define unreliability. Getting all of the sides to operate at the same time seems problematic for even the most dedicated maintenance staff...LOL, my first time at the park I wouldn't ride Pittfall after seeing people stuck at the top for about 15 minutes or so...

A terrain Morgan mine train might be a realy nice choice if they decide to go "sans inversions"...I haven't ridden Quicksilver Express, but I've heard good things... :)

Raging Rapids was extremely unreliable (and arguably dangerous) during its first few years of operation, but you can't hold something against the company that happened 20 years ago.

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Jeff Reim said:
How has intamin burned Kennywood?

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If you read either of the KW books by Jacques, Intamin's installation of both the rapids and laser loop were extremely problematic.

Laser Loop was the last of the Anton/Intamin shuttle loops and was evidently poorly manufactured. It had fatal faults with it's flywheel and clutch systems that had to be constantly replaced. According to the book, it was a maintenance nightmare for the park and had constant breakdowns that were incredibly expensive to repair.

The rapids ride had tons of structural, electrical, and mechanical problems. It was not open half of its first season. It was evidently another nightmare for the park. The book goes into great detail in regards to Intamin's failures with the ride and there were MANY.

I believe Gator covered the issues in regards to the Intamin 2nd generation drop rides.

Well I hope they dont build anything Intamin anyway, besides, if were talking coasters here, Kennywood already has a hyper, and thats what Intamin does best anyway..huge fast rides, so I think if theyre going looper, theyre going to go with B&M, but for now I think a wood coaster behind Racer can be expected before any steel looper.

Jeff,

Again I think you need to keep S&S in mind - they are totally capable of producing a looping coaster (they do have the entire Arrow catalog after all). Also, don't rule out Gerstauler or Maurer Sohne producing a custom looper. I think B&M is simply out of the price range that Kennywood would feel comfortable with. They also seem to be the type of company that goes at least a little off the beaten path for their attractions.

IMHO, I hope Kennywood (and LC) doesn't get a B&M of any kind - I don't think they make or break a park. Let B&M stick to big corporate parks where they belong and where they are a necessity. There are a lot of options for Kennycorp to explore in the steel arena.

Jim

If Kennywood's worried about getting burned by unreliable rides that don't do what they're advertised (i.e. - work), I highly doubt that S&S is the right way to go ...

That and I have some information that S&S and Kennywood have already had some large disagreements in regards to the new Swing ride - parts not as ordered, scheduled deliveries didn't happen, etc. etc. Perhaps just the normal contractor/engineer butting heads, but something that could definitely sour future relationships.

What ever they do I hope they put in a wooden coaster first. Then KW can build a B&M or two. The only thing wrong with that is B&M coasters ussually stick out and that would kinda messup the whole old family park design.

The area behind Exterminator (aka "Kennyville") will most likely not be used for any future ride development. Management told attendees at Kennykon last summer that most of the land in that area is zoned 'residential'. Most likely, picnic pavilions will be built there in the future. By doing this, this then frees up some land in the existing picnic groves for future development. Attendees were also told that the park was indeed looking at a Vekoma SLC at one point, but, wisely I might add, decided against it! It was confirmed that at least TWO coasters are tentatively planned for the big expansion - One wood and one steel. Again, nothing is definite, but, at least they are thinking coasters as part of their expansion plans. One interesting fact that was revealed is that the expansion ravine is about 180-200 feet deep! Just imagine the possibilities here...!

Lastly, a Setpoint water coaster will most likely never happen, either at Kennywood or Idlewild. It's capacity is too low and much too expensive for the type of ride it is. I personally heard this from management directly. Since only two have been built so far (plus the now defunct Caripro Hydro Fighter II clone at Emerald Pointe), my guess is not too many parks are looking at this type of ride anymore.

Of course, nothing is set in stone and only time will tell which direction Kennywood will take when the "Big Expansion" project develops.

Brother Dave, it would be in Kennywood's interest to request a zoning change on that land anyway since even something like a picnic pavilion is probably not considered a "use by right" in a residential district (at least pavilions the size of a park like Kennywood's). I don't know if they're in a commercial or recreational district, but I think that the benefits they could get from a zoning change would offset the time and cost.

Just a question-- where exactly is the land they obtained? In one article, I thought it said toward railroad tracks and shop, which I assumed meant toward the river. In another, I remember it saying toward or into Duquesne borough, which I assume means behind Jack Rabbit, Racer, etc.

I always thought it would be cool, though I don't know how feasible, to build a (section of a) coaster to follow a ravine, not just drop down and back up out of one. Zipping through this narrow course with nothing but the slopes on either side of you would be awesome I think. Not that it has anything to do with this discussion... but it's almost 2 am and I'm rambling.

It's actaully in many directions, they do own further out to the river (I believe), although that's not in the latest expansion plans. The latest purchase included the ravine behind Jack Rabbit and Racer, and a small part of the land up the other side of the ravine, but also across Kennywood Boulevard and up to the shopping plaza, including McDonalds and all that other stuff. I'm not guarenteeing this info 100%, but based on what I've heard, that's how the purchase went down.

They previously purchased the land being talked about above, "Kennyville", behind Exterminator over the last few years, parcel by parcel. They're close to, or actually do own everything over there now and from what I've heard for a couple of years now, are just using it as temporary employee housing until the last few true residents of the area move out and then that's going to become part of the park.

Doing anything involving local government for Kennywood is going to become difficult for a few months, as the entire board of the West Mifflin Boro is in big trouble for corruption, and all sorts of other lovely governmental wrongdoings. Should be interesting.

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RatherGoodBear said:
Brother Dave, it would be in Kennywood's interest to request a zoning change on that land anyway since even something like a picnic pavilion is probably not considered a "use by right" in a residential district (at least pavilions the size of a park like Kennywood's). I don't know if they're in a commercial or recreational district, but I think that the benefits they could get from a zoning change would offset the time and cost.

Just a question-- where exactly is the land they obtained? In one article, I thought it said toward railroad tracks and shop, which I assumed meant toward the river. In another, I remember it saying toward or into Duquesne borough, which I assume means behind Jack Rabbit, Racer, etc.

I always thought it would be cool, though I don't know how feasible, to build a (section of a) coaster to follow a ravine, not just drop down and back up out of one. Zipping through this narrow course with nothing but the slopes on either side of you would be awesome I think. Not that it has anything to do with this discussion... but it's almost 2 am and I'm rambling.

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Rezoning would sound pratical, but, I'm just repeating what the park manager told attendees at Kennykon last summer. Perhaps the strained relationship between the park and West Mifflin with the pending lawsuit concerning taxes might be a factor. That's just a guess.

The ravine area that they're looking into purchasing is a former railroad yard that sits behind the Racer and Jack Rabbit. They also purchased an old K-Mart shopping center near the park which is where the proposed hotel/indoor waterpark may be built. Both of these areas are located in neighboring Duquesne.