Kennywood Announcement

No fair giving a great answer that everyone else can come along and just agree with, Rob. :)

Another thing that was announced. It is still in development

*Edit by GregLeg -- Mary Lou said to share the test site with a few friends, but not TOO many people because they don't want it overwhelmed.*
*** Edited 3/11/2007 1:49:10 PM UTC by GregLeg***

Sorry bout that.
*** Edited 3/11/2007 5:12:57 PM UTC by Jason Hammond***

...to add to what Rob said IMHO what I consider "classic" about a park like Kennywood has nothing to do with what happens when waiting in a queue line. As a "purist" I have no problem with this either.

I assumed they'd be in more places than just queue lines based on Greg's info. (and PhantomTails)

So when does the 'traditional experience' no longer qualify as such? Like in 100 years we have Kennywood full of experiences we've never dreamed of, but as long as Kangaroo is sitting there somewhere, it's all good?

When exactly does that line get crossed? And what will qualify as 'traditional' in another 20 years? 50 years? 100 years?

I imagine to people who visited Kennywood in the 1900's, the current KW is quite modern and futuristic.

Just playing with the concept of perception here. :)

Easy, Gonch: if the park is ever purchased by Six Flags or Cedar Fair it stops being a traditional experience ;)

:) It was SO obvious.

As for the loss of the Kennyville Stage, something really needs to be done about this. KW needs more shows including some that appeal to all ages including seniors. Look at the population makeup in Pittsburgh. Lots of people over age 65.

These older people generally don't ride the thrill rides (although I once came across an 85 year old man on the Jack Rabbit). They want something that will appeal to them. That is one way that KW could boost their attendance without depending upon the new highway. This would also allow them to charge more for the older age group instead of giving the gate away to upper middle age people (like myself) who still ride thrill rides.

When you look at the parks that appeal to older people which ones are they? They are the Disney parks, the Universal studios parks, BGE, BGA and the Sea Worlds, DW, SDC, and KBF. These parks have many things other than coasters and other thrill rides.

I do recognize that KW has a few things that appeal to the age group mentioned such as the gardens and all of that nostalgia. They just have to get more in touch with the population realities in their region.

By the way, this doesn't mean that there should be fewer thrill rides. Not at all. Thrill rides will always be the heart of the Kennywood experience for most visitors and to remove a thrill ride for a show would be a bad idea. They just need to find a way to fit more shows in without altering the ride makeup. *** Edited 3/11/2007 11:53:46 AM UTC by Arthur Bahl***

I disagree about the differences in demographics argument. The many times I've been to Kennywood, I've never been struck by how many more codgers there are there than at any other park. And yes, a good park does need to appeal to a broad range of customers, from teens to families to mature adults. Kennywood does this well, but so do all good parks, including all the ones you rattled off.

As far as Gonch's statement about the Kangaroo, I think of it this way. Take a guy from 1900, drop him into a Six Flags park. He'll probably find the place incomprehensible. But stick him in a *traditional* park like KW, and he looks around, finds much that is foreign. But he also sees much that he knows and enjoys. To me, that's what a *traditional* park is.

I had a dream a couple months ago that was weirdly specific to this discussion. I dreamt I was plunked down in Kennywood, but it was about fifty years in the future. I was very disoriented by how different things were. There were vending machines where you put your palm to a sensor and merely thought about what you wanted to buy, and it was immediately dispensed. Of course, all the drinks were bizarre flavors. Quite odd.

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Lord Gonchar said:
Any advertising revenue or sponsorship opportunities going to be taken advantage of?

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Funny you should mention that. It sounds like Kennywood is in fact aware of potential here -- one example their PR Rep (Mary Lou) gave was about how if someone was sponsoring a hot dog eating contest in the park, the sponsor would be happy with the knowledge that people thoughout the park could be seeing bits of it, not just people physically present at the contest itself.

I think it's great, and a natural extension of the in-queue screens we've been seeing at the Paramounts and Six Flags and yes, even Kennywood itself (Garfield's Nightmare) over the years.
Other uses for technology like this could be weather updates, company picnic pavillion information (a natural for Kennywood especially), and so on.

It's not necessarily a new idea itself (parks have used all sorts of information boards and the like for many years), but it will be interesting to see how "traditional" parks like Kennywood and Idlewild make use of the system.

Another good use of the system would be to entertain people waiting in ride queues.

I figured that was just a given -- Kennywood's already HAD that in place for Garfield's Nightmare.

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Rob Ascough said:...the traditional park experience is not about a park being stuck in an era that ended long ago, it's about evolving with the times while retaining a large part of what made the park special in bygone eras.

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Nicely put, and certainly a big reason why Kennywood has become an annual stop...even without new credits, LOL. :)

I tried to give an answer that would be easy to interpret, whether you agree or disagree :)

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Lord Gonchar said:

So when does the 'traditional experience' no longer qualify as such? Like in 100 years we have Kennywood full of experiences we've never dreamed of, but as long as Kangaroo is sitting there somewhere, it's all good?

When exactly does that line get crossed? And what will qualify as 'traditional' in another 20 years? 50 years? 100 years?

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Damn you. Good question. Not sure what the answer is, considering I have no idea what the next 100 years will bring.

I guess it boils down to how far the park strays from its original concept. I suppose I could be bitter about the park once removing a wood roller coaster to make room for an Intamin rapids ride, but the park already had three wood coasters and needed the land for something new. You know me- I want to save ALL wood coasters, regardless of how much (or how little) sense it makes in the real world- but the way I see it, Kennywood went with the plan that would have the least impact on the traditional aspect of the park while ensuring it would have something to keep it alive in the future.

Really, it's tough to put into words because you're dealing with a large number of intangibles. I don't think there is any one, single part of Kennywood that completely defines the park (well, maybe the Carousel, Noah's Ark or Thunderbolt), it's just an overall feel, and an overall feeling it gives the guest. Things have changed in the past 100 years- no doubt about that- but when you emerge from that tunnel and enter the park, you can easily pick out things that could have been there back in 1898, even if they weren't there. Like I said, the park grows and expands to remain competitive, but it's pretty careful not to make changes drastic enough to scare people. Call Kennywood masters of the "rubber band effect"- they know how to stretch without ever reaching the point where things snap.

Did I answer the question, or make things more confusing?

Did I answer the question, or make things more confusing?

Yes, as always.

Here's a my $.02 on the "Tradtional Amusment Park"

1. It's somwhere where people of all ages can have a good time with a mix of stuff for everyone.

2. It remains true to it's past while being forward thinking

3. It fits it's surroundings. Look at my home park, Canobie Lake. They have some classic rides while trying to be innovative at the same time.

4. It's a place where memories are made.

The new stuff for Kennywood sounds great, and I don't think it takes away from the traditional feel of the park. (Not sure about the huge video screen replacing the Kennyville stage, though) Because of this discussion, I checked the Kennywood website to get a better feel for what was happening. Have you guys watched the podcast? Neat first podcast, Mary Lou did well.

http://kennywood.com/funzone/fz_podcasts.php

Couldn't get it to work in wmp, but iTunes ran it fine.

Since we're still discussing Kennywood ;) - I will note the two/three biggest mis-steps they've made in terms of losing some of that traditional feel in recent years (well, since I've been around to notice, LOL).

First, removing the Circle Swing. Not sure if there were maintenance issues or what, it HAS been awhile. but it's something that really made Kennywood kinda unique in these days.

Second, and even more egregious....re-theming the Old Mill to Garfield. Gonch thinks that Peanuts was outdated and ineffective for MoA (which I do generally agree with, except for the fact that there is a STRONG tie to the region). I cannot even *imagine* anyone making a similar case for Garfield having ANY kind of drawing power or emotional attachment for anyone, in Pittsburgh or elsewhere...and I personally LOVE lasagna... ;)

Third, I guess I should mention Bayern Kurve (or however they spell it up there, LOL). Ride needs to be returned to the park. Takes up almost no space, classic flat.

By NO means does any of this mean that I don't WHOLLY appreciate the work that's done to keep Noah's Ark, the Kangaroo, Auto Race, etc. up and running like they did "back in the ol' days".... :)

*** Edited 3/12/2007 2:45:34 PM UTC by rollergator***

I find it interesting that you both (Gator & Rob) mention Noah's Ark. I find that to be as much as a travesty as Garfield is. The modernization of the ride leaves next to nothing from the cheesy old fun days of past. It's a thoroughly modern attraction wrapped in a classic package. I don't hate it, but I don't consider it a 'preserved classic' any more. Ditto on Garfield. And yes, Garfield has to be one of the worst licenses going. It makes Peanuts look good by comparison.

Reading these posts made something come to mind though - I think I take a place like Kennywood for granted.

I grew up in western PA. While you guys like the novelty and classic experience of things like the Kangaroo and the woodies, it's just kind of what amusement parks are to me. As I get (1) older and (2) to more and more parks, I do see what a special thing the folks in Pittsburgh have, but it doesn't change the fact that it's old hat to me.

Actually prior to 1999, I only visited three parks in my life - CP, KW and CLP. How's that for creating a jaded young man right out of the gate? For the first 25 years of my life the only three parks I'd ever visited were arguably the best 'big' park around, the best 'traditional' park around and a beloved 'small' park. When all of your early experience comes from such places it's easy to take for granted the things that other people find special about such places.

Kangaroo, Noah's Ark, Bayern Curve, Auto Race, Old Mill, Jackrabbit, the picnic shelter approach - it's just what we did every summer and on school trips and when we were bored. It just was. Everyone knew (in my circle of influence, at least) that when you wanted to go to a 'real' park you headed to Sandusky.

Honestly in hindsight, I think that has gone a long way towards forming the opinions I hold today. I'm not impressed with the smaller, more traditional parks because to me they're not that special. More special is that big trip to the nearest 'mga-park' with it's towering steel, state of the art rides and themed areas. We grew up with that 'traditional' experience in our backyard. There was nothing alluring or exotic or even nostalgic about it to us. In fact, as most younger folks do, we thought of the place as lame.

Today I appreciate the park much mor than I ever did back then, but in the big picture of life-shaping influences I think that goes a long way towards explaining my opinions.

So to those highly regarded traditional parks in Pittsburgh, Elysburg and Santa Claus (and elsewhere) - I'm sorry our relationship doesn't seem to work out all the time - it's not you, it's me. I'm just not ready for that kind of relationship. :)

I consider Kennywood and Knoebels totally refreshing to me. Maybe it's age, I don't know but I've visited Kennywood 7 straight years now and am going back. Knoebels I've been to 4 of the last 6 years.

Shorter lines, Lots to do and little hype and comerciallizm. Fits me to a tee.

Chuck

Good point, Gonch. My cousin's husband grew up in Pittsburgh and while he always told me of his love for Kennywood, it was obvious that he saw it as a regular amusement park that he and his family and friends went to on a regular basis. But Kennywood isn't alone- a lot of parks that we enthusiasts consider great are ones that the locals consider to be just another part of the landscape.

I remember going to Indiana Beach a few years back and I got into an interesting conversation with the lady behind the register at a Monticello convenience store. As our conversation progressed, I told her that we were from NJ to visit Indiana Beach. After looking at me like I had three heads, she said, "it ain't no Six Flags". I said, "exactly."

I can see where you're going. You grew up with one of the greatest traditional parks in your backyard, so it's hard for a traditional park to impress you. I suppose I'd feel the same about theme parks if I grew up in Orlando.

The difference between Noah's Ark and the Old Mill? Noah's Ark may have changed, but it's still an ark with something of an animal/aquatic theme. It may not be the way the ark was when it opened, but it's obvious the spirit of the ride lives on. As for the Old Mill, I love Garfield but he has no place in there. The Old Mill shouldn't be filled with neon cut-outs of a commercial entity- it's just... wrong.