Is Lo-Q dead?
I think instead of looking at the park as "ripping you off", let's look at other things enthusiasts spend their money on:
a) T-shirts—Average cost $20. "Hey where is "The Legend" located at?" Guess what? You've just provided Holiday World with free advertising, and you paid them for the privilage. Add in baseball caps and pins too.
b) Games of Chance/Arcade games/DDR—Again, no one is forcing you to play
c) Lockers in Waterparks—Big rip-off that usually requires a big deposit for a tiny little locker
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If you have a problem with clones, the solution is real simple—Stop traveling.
Paris said:
When you're flying coach on a plane you can moan about those riding first class on the other side of the curtain or you can realize that if those folks weren't paying 2-3 times the coach fare you would be paying a whole lot more for your seat.
While I see where you're going with this, it's not a perfect analogy. I've never paid for first class or business class (on transatlantic), but I've been in the front of the plane for roughly 75% of my flights in the past 2 years (including 3 of 4 flights on 2 Pittsburgh/London trips). Why? Because I know how to game the system. I'll admit it. I have Silver Preferred status on USAirways. I book non-peak-hours discounted coach fares well ahead of time, stick myself in the upgrade queue early, and hope for the best. Most of the time, it works out (I'm actually running out of upgrade certificates, but I can buy more of those for a lot less than an actual first class ticket). Now granted, the whole reason for those upgrade programs is to foster customer loyalty -- it's what kept me going back to USAirways during that time, to the point of not even bothering to price the other majors for some of the trips.
And that's with a lowly Silver status -- the Gold and Chairman's Preferred's go ahead of me on the upgrade list even if they sign up later. Hmmm, maybe that IS a lot like virtual queue systems after all ;)
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--Greg, aka Oat Boy
My page
"Friendship -- more lasting than love, more legal than stalking."
*** This post was edited by GregLeg 3/15/2003 2:11:53 AM ***
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Be polite and ignore the idiots. - rollergator
"faster, cheaper, and more often" that's somebody's new sig -UpsideDawnGrrrl
My shirt in my photo seems to be for "Aging Bull"
ApolloAndy said:
Edit: An even more extreme and demonstrative case:You Lo-Q for chiller and get in the regular line for chiller anyway.
That *would* sound like you could "skirt" the system. But the reality is, that wont work in real life. You see, I tried this very same thing. And, in this case, I *was* able to get in two rides, but that was ONLY because a large portion of the line left when it started raining. Had everyone stayed in the line, I would have missed my window (I almost missed it anyway). There *is* a *slight* flaw in the system; I think they estimate the line on "theoretical" or "expected" capacity, so the line ends up being slightly longer than the Lo-Q wait, but I dont know how you would factor in fat people who dont fit, kids losing their basketballs and other "random assness" (TM - NewYorkSuperman) that wears down capacity.
But in any case, I'll chalk one up to you that there is *potential* for a guest to be queued for two Lo-Q accessible rides @ the same time (one virtual, one physical).. but let me ask you this, "Is that likely?" Thinking as an enthusiast, your answer is probably "Yes" and I'd agree that among enthusiasts, that is reasonably the most common answer. But think like a GP. Most will ride everything that they want *once* first, then go back and re-visit favorites. This can be seen most often in parks like SFGAm, where you'll often encounter the same people in the lines you are in, because y'all are 'tackling' the park in a similar logical progression.
Now, if I'm going to test out everything once to see what I like, wouldnt I be more likely to use this Lo-Q device on every ride it's available on? That is to say, yes I *could* Lo Q Chiller and get in line for B:TR, but wouldn't I be better served by wasting my Lo-Q time doing something that I *cannot* use Lo-Q for later? I'd wager, that in practice, the average Lo-Q user reserves a ride, then mills about in the area of the ride, waiting for their time to come. Now, some of the Lo-Q rides are 'substantially' nearby, but they are still far enough away to give a guest pause about missing thier time on the reserved ride. This, I conjecture, would goad them into riding the less popular rides, taking in a show, or eating. But, I think it stands to reason that at least the majority of Lo-Q users will *not* be in line for another Lo-Q ride. But I admitt, while well-reasoned, it's only my theory. The *posibility* for abuse is there.
lata, jeremy
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Who doesn't want to see Russian lesbian teens singing in the rain?
Okay, to begin with, we have to start with a discussion of what money *is*. For those people who have ever held a job, you will be able to follow along fairly well. If not, dont give up, I'll try and tie it together succintly.
Remember that first job you had? Remember how every week (or two weeks) you had to turn in a slip of paper in order to get paid? Remember what it was called? That's right a TIMEcard. Now some of you may have been paid by the piece or some other commision-based scheme, but most of use have at some point used a TIMEcard. On there, you delineated how much time you dedicated to doing "the bosses work". While you were most likely *evaluated* on the "quality" of that work, your PAID for the TIME that you worked. Moreover, you only took that job because you felt the MONEY was just substitution for the TIME you spent working that you could have been doing any number of things. Right then, you accepted that MONEY is a reasonable substitute for TIME.
Now, if TIME and MONEY are equvialents, doesnt it seem reasonable that the reverse exchange should be possible? That is, instead of spending TIME to recieve MONEY, could I not spend MONEY to freeup TIME? Remember, it is well accepted that they are interchangeable.
Let me argue one more similar, but differently illustrated point. Suppose me and GregLeg go to HERSHEYPARK (not together, we just both happen to be going to the park and are not meeting). Let's additionally assume that they have paid virtual queing system (call it Kiss n' Ride :)). Now, it's a Saturday and both Greg and I are going to HP (open 10am-10pm). We both get there at opening and when the ropes drop, we, along with the rest of the throng all head to Lightning Racer. Everyone running as fast as they can.
Well as it turns out, I am a poor athlete, and Greg's in great shape. He and several others make it to the LR entrance well ahead of me and when I get there, a significant line has formed. Likewise, this happens at most attractions during the day. I'm just not fast enough to get ahead of the massed of people trying to get to the rides I want to get to. Now, there is *no one* here would would argue that Greg, using his superior athletic prowess, has in anyway 'diminished' my experience. However, if I were to use my superior bank account to get that same advantage over Greg via the Kiss n' Ride program, y'all would be upset.
My question is "why?" Both of us used our commodities to get an advantage. Why is only the "monetary" deemed bad? It's just a different way of thinking that's all. I invite you all to take a gander.
lata, jeremy (ran my mouth too long again...)
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Who doesn't want to see Russian lesbian teens singing in the rain?
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--Greg, aka Oat Boy
My page
"Friendship -- more lasting than love, more legal than stalking."
Practically how would this work? An IOA style bar code system that you have to scan to get in physical line, whether or not you have Lo-Q might work.
This, in effect, will get more people out of lines and riding less popular attractions/eating more food/buying more souveniers WITHOUT affecting wait times for anyone for the larger attractions or affecting capacity.
Another thing that I really appreciated at IOA was the wait time boards that showed the wait times for all the major attractions around the park.
I wonder if RCT will ever have any kind of VQing.
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Be polite and ignore the idiots. - rollergator
"faster, cheaper, and more often" that's somebody's new sig -UpsideDawnGrrrl
My shirt in my photo seems to be for "Aging Bull"
I'm also fine with paying for additional services or benefits. I belong to my airline's lounge so I can get a decent cup of coffe in a comfortable chair without someone's four year old spilling their milk in my lap while waiting for the inevitable snowstorm to pass. I sit in the Good Seats at a baseball game, in part because they put you closer to the Good Beer Stand. Heck, I pay twice what I need to for hippy-dippy biodynamic organic produce--mainly so my kids can see a cow first hand, and understand what "fertilizer" means in that context.
However, an amusement park is one of the last places where everyone is more or less on the same footing. It is a great equalizer. It doesn't matter if I have a mullet or a million bucks, I'm treated the same way.
Except for the mullet jokes.
I think virtual queues, done in moderation, are a great thing. But, I prefer the model where they are free. I like Cedar Point's model. The "normal" line flows smoothly because the virtual queue flow is limited, and everyone gets a crack at a virtual spot. Having virtual queues as an extra charge service detracts from the great equalizing nature of an amusement park.
In other words, there's a reason for the curtain between first class and coach.
Do I take advantage of virtual queues, early entry, etc. even if it sometimes costs me a few bucks? Sure. Doesn't mean I wouldn't be just as happy without 'em.
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http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~bnoble/
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Be polite and ignore the idiots. - rollergator
"faster, cheaper, and more often" that's somebody's new sig -UpsideDawnGrrrl
My shirt in my photo seems to be for "Aging Bull"
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http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~bnoble/
Has it occurred to anybody else that every ride in the park has two capacities: The capacity that we're all obsessed about, the rate at which the ride can take riders from the queue to the ride exit; and a second capacity that we don't often think about, the rate at which people can move through the queue. The reason the queue exists in the first place is that people can enter the queue much faster than they can ride the ride. I figure that with a single entrance, a queue can pull people off the midway at about 2,500 PPH. It follows, then, that the closer the actual ride capacity gets to 2,500 PPH, the shorter the line is going to be even if the park is getting slammed. Sometimes that has to be adjusted; Cedar Point's Gemini has a double-wide queue with two turnstiles at the entrance and two stairways leading up to the platform because the ride can move 3,400 PPH, meaning that a single queue can't move enough people to keep the trains loaded...people physically can't get from the midway to the platform fast enough.
Okay, so we have a ride which has a particular capacity, and a particular arrival rate in the queue. The waiting time will be determined by the difference between queue arrivals and ride departures. Adding a virtual queue does nothing to improve the ride's throughput, but it increases the queue capacity by the number of people who come through the virtual queue bypass entrance. The result is more people trying to crowd onto the ride in the same period of time, meaning that EVERYBODY has to wait longer.
Now, if Six Flags does things right, they could use LoQ to reduce queueing times, assuming that certain traffic patterns apply in their parks. For instance, using Cedar Point (admittedly neither a Six Flags park nor a Lo-Q park...) as an example, ideally anybody who shows up at Raptor with a Q-bot should be told to come back between 4pm-6pm, when the ride is typically a walk-on because everybody else is standing in the Millennium Force queue at that time. In other words, the virtual queue should be used to push people to less-busy parts of the park. Jeremy talked about the phenomenon of always meeting the same people in line because you're all working the park the same way. This is true...and there will be a large 'bump' in the crowd based on the people who got there right around the time the park opened. If the park wants to make virtual queueing useful, they will use it to break up that logjam. Unfortunately, the physical layout of so many parks (thank you, Randall Duell...) makes this impractical.
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
Let me try on these Nostradamus sandals for a bit and toss out five wild predictions. They're going to sound crazy, but in three years I expect one or two to happen. Maybe it's from cash-strapped Six Flags. Maybe it's from somebody else. No, these aren't rumors. I don't think anyone has done these, tried these or even thought of these. But in a world where squeezing the most out of each park guest but doing so in a way that the guest conceives it as a park enhancer is becoming the norm, don't be surprised if:
-- New on-ride photo offer. Buy one photo and prepay for the next one and you'll get a pass to board right away.
-- Super Combo Meals. Order a special souped up meal at the park's most expensive restaurant and you'll get a ride pass.
-- New prize at a game booth? Front-of-the-line and possibly seat selection rights on a specific nearby ride.
-- Affinity bank card offer. With Six Flags, Disney and Universal (well, at least Uni used to) having their own branded credit cards, apply for the plastic at the park and get a FOTL pass for a ride.
-- Park referral program. Season passholders will get vouchers with small discounts for park entrance. Each one will be tagged with the passholder's ID. For every ten that are redeemed at the gate the passholder will get a FOTL pass and a token prize (as in a steeply discounted renewal for the next season).
Don't think any of this will happen? The trend is the friend. It will.
diplomacy: The art of telling a man to "go to hell" in such a way that he looks forward to the trip.
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
BTW, by calling them "good" ideas, I mean there is a potential for increasing profits...I don't mean to infer good-ness in other aspects...some of them would downright *suck* as far as we enthusiasts are concerned...;)
*** This post was edited by rollergator 3/16/2003 12:27:45 PM ***
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Be polite and ignore the idiots. - rollergator
"faster, cheaper, and more often" that's somebody's new sig -UpsideDawnGrrrl
My shirt in my photo seems to be for "Aging Bull"
And thsi notion of amusement parks being the great "equalizer", that's a load of crap. First off, not everyone one in the world (or even our country) can afford the lesiure time to spend a day at the park. Moreover, the mere entrance fees for a mid-sized family (4-5 peeps) is in the hundreds for many park, at that doesnt include food, beverages, etc. Furthermore, if you dont have access to vehicular transportation, you cannot even go to several parks (Cedar Point comes to mind) based on their often remote locales.
So parks are a set up even before you get in the gates. Having further distinctions, IMO, is a natural progression.
What I find really funny is that I've not heard many complaints about VIP tours, which have been around for ages.
lata, jeremy
--who wont even bring up the "Dunk the N...err 'African Dip' games" ..oops.. too late :)
HOOK 'EM!!!!
Thanks in advance for your help (we're planning our year now, and knowing which parks have it really does help!)
--Robb
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