intamin top of the coaster tree?
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i think it is about time B&M did something a little more inovative, or intamin will run away from them, and before you know it, everyone will want an intamin in their park, not a B&M!
So, as always, the manufacturers are building what the parks want and as soon as someone else wants a launched B&M, I think you'll be singing a different tune.
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AC?, RB?, MF?, DD?, PR? Who can keep track of it all?
But, still, BM has rides like Batman, Riddlers Revenge, Nitro, AC, AlpenGeist, Kumba.. all supiorior rides. I can't spell. Anywho, just one year doesn't put one over the other. And why is it BM versus Intamin? Both are excellent.
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Texas Coasters... wow I'm lucky... IM me if you feel like talking about coasters.
Silver Star, AIR, Superman, Batman:The Pursuit, Batman:Dark Knight, and Calypso aren't worth mentioning?
B&M has the percect safety record, Intiman's brake system failed three times in two weeks on Superman:Ride of Steel last year causing two crashes and a valleying, Vertical Velocity wasn't operating correct all season and there was no vertical brake hold from May till the end of the season.
B&M has come up with a lot of the best concepts on the market which they are showcasing right now. Xcelerator is the onlything from the inovative category for Intiman this year so what's the point? Intiman hypers/gigas are awsome, but there are so few of them that you can't really compare such a small group to another builder's work. Intiman has already started the works on another Monte Makaya/Colossus clone for another park so the glory Colossus won't be lasting long. Of all the steel manufactuers currenty building, the best quality is coming out of B&M. We have respect for S:ROS, MForce, Exp. G Force, and Goliath, but there is a higher note out there for B&M which probably wont be replaced by any of the other current manufactuers' work.
yeah, but dont you think B&M are getting a little repeatative? basic B&M coaster:
drop into vertical loop, followed by cobra roll/dive loop/ immelman, into another of the inversions mentioned, mid course brake run, interlocking corkscrews.
cant they try and be at least slightly inovative anymore?!
laurence said:
yeah, but dont you think B&M are getting a little repeatative? basic B&M coaster:
drop into vertical loop, followed by cobra roll/dive loop/ immelman, into another of the inversions mentioned, mid course brake run, interlocking corkscrews.
cant they try and be at least slightly inovative anymore?!
That is what companys are wanting. They want as much as they can squeeze into a space. The General Public does not care that B&M uses the same formula (and the reason they use it is because it is what the park , not B&M wants). Repeatative? Don't you think Intamin is getting repeatative just installing there V2 clones, and would be V2 clones all over the place?
This debate can't have a winner. On one side we have the Intamin people who praise Intamin , and they have a good reason to, they have some pretty sweet coasters. On the other hand there is the B&M people who love B&M. Intamin people gripe about B&M's all being the same, and B&M people say that B&M are safer. Personally I am just happy we live in a time where so many coasters are being built. It is nice knowing there are new coasters being built by two great companies every year. That they unlike Arrow have such a following. That there rides have better records than Vekomas, that they are smoother than Togo's.
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I don't really care who's "The Best" Coaster Manufacturer, or which Coaster is better than the next. I'm just happy to Ride Roller Coasters PERIOD! Every Coaster Manufacturer has had their ups and downs, no pun intended. You can find Faults in anything, if you look hard enough. I just climb aboard, get strapped in, and enjoy every minute I have on any Roller Coaster, all without caring who built the thing. They are massive machines built for Amusement, why not just enjoy the ride. Save the Complaining for Green Peace or some cause worth fighting for. But then again, I'm easily entertained, and don't really care who made my entertainment either. Lata
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Salt Lake City, Utah. Host City of the 2002 Winter Olympic Games - Light The Fire Within!
Lagoon Park...A New Prototype Coaster for 2003?
Where does everybody get this strange idea that Coaster Design firms don't get a say, that the parks are the ones that make decisions. Do you realise how often parks will go to companies only to be turned away because the company either doesn't feel they are up to the job (such as B&M launched coasters) or simply have moved their resources elsewhere (Arrow's stance on the Phantom's Revenge project).
Then one a company believes they are up to the challenge set by the park, 98% of the design process is by the company, not the park. Suppose a park wants a 5 inversion coaster, rarely will it be up to them to decide what the actual ride consists of - otherwise the park would design in in-house and work with the design firm to get the design to a working level (see Rock 'n' Roller Coaster and Vekoma).
If the park is using a flat footprint for the ride, the company will design the ride for that, often first laying down an existing ride design, then modifying it to suit the needs of the land or the actual park officials. Sometimes the park may say "we want a twisting drop", or "it must be x metres tall" and they modify the design to inlude those factors.
Sure, a park may want a completely new ride, but will you ever find a ride with corkscrews as the first inversions? (I'm not talking about Arrow's Corkscrew rides, or Vekoma's counterparts).
You'll see one thing with that order of elements on B&M's - they go from least lateral to most. Lateral G's are the ones they loose most speed on, so keep them to the end where they can be designed smaller because the trains enter them slower, and they will run off some of the remaining speed before the brakes.
Yes there are exceptions to this, because parks did want something different, but still then, it isn't up to the park as to what the ride consists of. They give the design firm a list of the concepts they want in the ride, and the company either looks at it and nods, or tosses it away.
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So what if the best coaster in Australia is a second hand Arrow?
http://www.totalthrills.com
*** This post was edited by auscoasterman on 4/11/2002. ***
my personal prefference is for Intamin.
However CCI is still near the top using 100 year old technology :)
Chuck, who still finds woodies funner than most any steel
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Charles Nungester
Americana (Now called The great americana amusement park at Lesourdsville Lake) is opening in 2002. Indivdual visits are very improtant to the parks survival.
auscoasterman said:
it isn't up to the park as to what the ride consists of.
But in the end, no matter how much designing B&M or Intamin or whoever does, final jurisdiction over the ride is always up to the parks. If the parks want a corkscrew as the first inversion then B&M will provide it, or won't, and the park goes to a different company. Its not like a park will hirer B&M and say "Um...ok, and we want a batwing here" and B&M says "No, you get a cobra roll, like it or not." Doesn't really make a lot of business sense, does it?
In the end, the layout is still up to the park, no matter how much work the designer puts into it.
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If the shoe fits, find another one.
Charles Nungester said:
However CCI is still near the top using 100 year old technology
CCI is still near the top using state of the art technology nothing like what they had 100 years ago, or even 20.
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If the shoe fits, find another one.
There's a happy medium between the client and manufacturer in there somewhere.
okay, I really don't care who makes the coaster as long as its good and I can ride it, but I've got some problems with the original post. what exactly is innovative about Intamin's 2002 installations? Xcelerator: yeah its got a layout that was never attempted before, but that's about it. Colossus: how is this innovative? actually, to prove its un-innovativeness, its based off of another Intamin coaster. Wicked Twister: this is the same as Colossus. they changed a couple things about one of their previous rides.
now I'm not saying that B&M doesn't do this with their rides, but you made it seem as if Intamin is the end all and be all of innovation when they're doing the same things that you accuse B&M of doing.
now as for B&M being un-innovative, I don't know where you got that one. they a whole new type of coaster and they're being un-innovative? wtf!
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-Bob (formerly Coaster Jedi)
Knott's Berry Farm Cuba ~South Park
"Your proctologist called, he found your head!" ~Jerry "The King" Lawler
I know for a fact that SDC was the major speaking voice behind Wildfire. I believe everyone of the rides at SDC have been in park designed and then given to a firm to build. That's why that chain is so awesome.
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S W :) :) S H
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GO CARDINALS!!!
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If the shoe fits, find another one.
laurence said:
yeah, but dont you think B&M are getting a little repeatative? basic B&M coaster:
drop into vertical loop, followed by cobra roll/dive loop/ immelman, into another of the inversions mentioned, mid course brake run, interlocking corkscrews.
cant they try and be at least slightly inovative anymore?!
I could not agree more, finally somebody that sees what I see. Ok first off, B&M is a GREAT manufacturer that's enough said they're outstanding rides!!! But, (and that's a BIG but) they're rides are SOOOO expensive that even the biggest parks can't afford to build a sizeable one (one over 3,250 ft) I mean in the last two years, there has been one BIG B&M built in America. In case your searching your brain for which one that is, it's Nitro. I'm not talking out of the US, because our economy has been plunging the last couple years and that might not be the case elsewhere. Let's recap some of the coasters in America built in the last two years and their length stats according to rcdb.com.
Wildfire, 3,073 ft costing a mindblowing $14,000,000.00!(look at all those zero's!)
Before you tell me that "yeah but Wildfire is a GREAT ride" let me tell you this, so is all of the Intamin looping coasters (from what I've heard) And now Silver Dollar City is going to have to save that much longer to pay off that coaster and get another one.
Batman: TDK, 2,600 ft long, a compact coaster with the predictable layout mentioned by the quote. I can't imagine the cost but if I had to guess, I'd think it to be between $10 and $12,000,000.00.
Superman UF, 2,760 ft long, while it is a revolutionary idea (only by B&M not revolutionary altogether) it is once again very short and while I can't even guess the price on this coaster because of the type it is, it probably wasn't cheap. I guess I don't have too many regrets to this ride because next to B&M, there is no competition for flying coaster other than Vekoma who really are much worse that B&M in creativity IMO.
Let's take a look back before the economy began to fall. (All of the following coasters listed built in 2000)
Superman Krypton Coaster, 4,025 ft long one of B&M's most unique layouts IMO and truly a magnificent accomplishment.
Raging Bull, 5,057 ft long, one of the smartest decisions in rides SFGAm has made IMO really bringing them once again into the competition. Excellent extremely unique layout which is common among B&M's non-looping coasters.
Apollo's Chariot, 4,882 ft long, one of the most exhillerating (sp?) airtime packed rides I've ever ridden! (It is my personal favorite coaster)
Batman Knight Flight, 4,210 ft long, somewhat unique ride for B&M standards but still the inversion pattern was typical.
Look at the difference, it's astronomical! It looks pretty obvious to me that B&M's prices are not falling with the economy.
As for those of you who constantly claim that parks ask for it, they build it. I have a question for you. Do you really believe that they go to B&M and say I want it to drop, go through a loop, then through an immelman, than through a Cobra Roll, then into a midcourse break, followed by 2 interlocking corkscrews? NO!!! If they went to them and said that, they would save money by instead designing it themselves and having B&M engineer it and send the plans off to be manufactured. Let me tell you what SFOG said.(My educational guess on what they said)
We've been researching your flying coaster and have decided that we want one. We have this piece of land where we will remove that visible coaster over there. We want it to be at least 100 ft tall, and we want it to have a record breaking element (pretzel loop).
In conclusion after writing the above novel, while B&M is really great at what they do, they need to adapt with the times, and the times are changing. Unless if they act, they're going to end up like the Swiss watch company that used to be up there with Rolex. However they saw the new gadgets on watches and decided that it was just a temporary trend that would pass so they didn't adapt with the times. Rolex adapted with the times adding some digital things into their watches etc. Today you can buy a Swiss watch for about $35-$150.00 and nobody wants one (few people.) A CHEAP Rolex will cost you more than $1,500.00 (more if you buy it in NYC) There is some big word that means "changing with the times" I learned it last year during an economy class I don't remember it though.
In answer to your question laurence, yes, I do think they can definately do something more innovative.
Geez does that feel good to get off my chest!
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Milwaukee Wisconsin, we bring you beer, brats and cheese. But don't be fooled, "Milwaukee truly is a special secret getaway that I will be sure to tell my friends about!" Erin Brockevich, not to mention that we are an hour from SFGAm........
*** This post was edited by SFGAMDie HARD on 4/11/2002. ***
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-Bob (formerly Coaster Jedi)
Knott's Berry Farm Cuba ~South Park
"Your proctologist called, he found your head!" ~Jerry "The King" Lawler
The above post by SFGAMDie Hard is filled with so much bad logic I don't even know where to begin. Instead of pulling it apart piece by piece I'll just state this:
If you've taken an economics course you should know that in a capitalistic society, suppliers sell products and services at the highest price the market can bear. If they sold for less, their profit margins decrease, if they sold for more, less consumers would buy, and profit margins would yet again decrease. An essential part of running a business is finding a happy medium on your charts where you maximize your number of consumers in direct proportion to your cost.
The notion that you have a better knowledge of economics and the coaster industry then B&M is completely laughable. Obviously, B&M has been an incredibly succesful company, and expressing your notion that soon they will be out of business because they are "uninnovative" or "too costly" or "predictable" is just opening yourself up to ridicule. Seriously, how is B:DK's layout being "predictable" going to effect SFNE's return on investment? It isn't.
Lastly, your argument about watch companies isn't backed up by fact or real evidence whatsoever, but even if it were, it wouldn't apply to this situation. If you had any real knowledge of economics, you would easily know that roller coaster production and watch manufacturing are completely different in nature. Comparing the two does no good in this context whatsoever. Once you have run one of the most successful roller coaster building firms in the world, then maybe your arguments will have more merit, but until then, I suggest you lay off predicting the demise of B&M using completely half-assed logic based on your own personal taste of what's "predictable."
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If the shoe fits, find another one.
*** This post was edited by ravenguy98 on 4/11/2002. ***
Bob -
Apparently its some sort of pulley system, but I don't have any real knowledge of most of the mechanics of roller coasters. I'm sure someone around here will be happy to help, but all I know is that its some sort of pulley system powered by hydraulics. Or at least that's how I understand it.
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If the shoe fits, find another one.
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