Hyper/Looper

Coasterdude, my example specifically stated a size difference that is in parallel to Playa's example. Try it - take a turn on an interstate (which is very large and long ... like my ... ) at 45 and take a city corner (which is small and short ... like Tekno's ... ;) ) at 45 and see which one is "floaty" or not that intense and which flips your car.

If you can show me a way to navigate a 200+ foot tall loop at any kind of speed with which to make it "whippy" instead of "floaty" without a 500' hill (and without LIMs or Hydro-launches) be my guest ...

Just in case anyone cared (and so we have a jumping point for figures), a perfectly circular loop that's ~3/5 as tall as the drop (friction ignored) will produce zero-g at the top.

hmm, i cared. interesting fact.

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TeknoScorpion said:
But I thought that was exactly what he was doing by using the distinction of it being a city street corner as opposed to a curve on the highway? Not tring to disagree with you, but I have to say I got the same thing out of it that Brett did.

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That's where you were wrong. Playa's example said nothing about the size of the corner being different. Actually, what he said was take a city street corner at 65mph, then try that same corner at 15mph. Varrying the size of the corner didn't come in until Impulse-ive's post.

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Impulse-ive said:
Coasterdude, my example specifically stated a size difference that is in parallel to Playa's example. Try it - take a turn on an interstate (which is very large and long ... like my ... ) at 45 and take a city corner (which is small and short ... like Tekno's ... ) at 45 and see which one is "floaty" or not that intense and which flips your car.

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Sure, that's a given, but that's not what I was talking about. Let me lay it all out for you. Let's compare two looping coasters - one with a 200' high first drop, the other is half that height (100'). If a vertical loop of equal size (say 80') follows the first drop then the coaster with the 200' drop is going to be *much* more forceful whipping through that inversion than the 100' ride. Right? Another given.

But that's not what we were talking about either. What was (essentially) said is that "big inversions are less intense." Taking "intense" to mean "forceful", let me prove that wrong. Take the same two coasters. Coaster A has a 200' first drop, Coaster B has a 100' first drop. Immediately following the first drop on both rides is a vertical loop. If the loop on Coaster A is slightly smaller than 200' and Coaster B's loop is slightly smaller than 100', assuming both rides make it through the loop at similar speeds, G-Forces in the loop will be practically identical. However, keep Coaster B's loop at slightly less than 100' and shrink Coaster A's loop to 150', then Coaster A's loop *is* going to be more forceful because the train will travel through the loop with more speed.

What does that prove? Well, if a 150' loop can be more forceful than a 100' loop, then clearly it is not the inversion's size alone that determines intensity. It also depends on *speed*. If Alpengeist or Hulk happened to be another 100' taller than they currently are, those "huge (but 'forceless')" inversions would suddenly become intense - much more intense than a small loop executed at a low speed.

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If you can show me a way to navigate a 200+ foot tall loop at any kind of speed with which to make it "whippy" instead of "floaty" without a 500' hill (and without LIMs or Hydro-launches) be my guest ...

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When did I ever state I could do that? All I stated is that you have to factor in both loop size AND speed of the ride to determine intensity. Thus, your claim that "big inversions are [necessarily] less intense" is invalid by itself.

-Nate

A main difference between Hyper and Looper seems to be the "aggressiveness" of the twist in the rails as well as the G-forces. While Hypers seem to focus on height, speed and "floaty" hills, loopers seem to be about twisting the track to the most incredible contortions imaginable.
I think the newer Intamin rides seem to break the categories pretty efficiently - even though "Storm Runner" would be more of a "contorted" looper given the definition above.

Yeah... why not have a Nitro-like coaster with a huge floaty loop in it.

LET ME SAY IT AGAIN... FLLLLOOOAAAATY *** Edited 12/16/2003 7:04:48 AM UTC by superman***

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coasterdude 318 said:

What was (essentially) said is that "big inversions are less intense." Taking "intense" to mean "forceful", let me prove that wrong.

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Well, I'm not sure that's what was being said at all.

I took it (meant it?) more as "the inversions on these coasters (Hulk & Alpie) are so big (relative to their overall size) that they tend to be forceless."

I don't think anyone generalized that big inversions will always be forceless - just that the big inversions on those two coasters are.

Most of us understand the basic physics involved.

We're just discussing what we dislike (or like) about similar designs (meaning similar to the original question of Hyper Loopers) that already exist.

It's really not that deep or complicated - just casual discussion.

Could anything with this high of a "floaty" ratio be anything but casual?

But some (not necessarily you) were saying that. Go back to page two, read my first post to the subject, and you'll see where it all stemmed from.

-Nate

There are big+intense loops.
E.G. Thriller/Texas Tornado/Zonga has two circular back to back loops that were pulling the most intense Gs on the planet, while still being fairly large.
On the other hand, big loops are less "intense" by their nature as they tend to happen smoother and slower as compared to small whip-arounds.

Maybe this is somehow related to why 12" 45rpm vinyls sound better than 7" 45rpm vinyls.
.. ?

Anyway- without its hyperactive "chaos" wingarounds, Batman wouldn't be Batman. *** Edited 12/16/2003 10:34:41 AM UTC by superman***

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superman said:
There are big+intense loops.
E.G. Thriller/Texas Tornado/Zonga has two circular back to back loops that were pulling the most intense Gs on the planet, while still being fairly large.

Maybe this is somehow related to why 12" 45rpm vinyls sound better than 7" 45rpm vinyls.
.. ?

*** Edited 12/16/2003 10:34:41 AM UTC by superman***

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Heavy on the "were." Zonga doesn't pull nearly the G's I was expecting this summer and was a pretty "poofy" ride overall.

I don't think the vinyl analogy is valid in that centripital force on the needle won't really affect sound quality. More likely, the reason is because the needle travels over more vinyl when it's revolving around a 12" cirlcle than a 7" circle, so it has a lot more media to store the same data.