History to repeat? B&M and Arrow

Monday, October 18, 2004 5:47 PM
It seems to me that the standard arrow inversions lasted about 10 years or so during Arrows hey-day. The back to back teardrop loop found on Doubleloop, Vortex, and all the megaloopers. The boomer-rang lasted a while and corkscrews were standard. At the time these coasters were great, so what happened? I'll give them credit for trying...Drachen Fire's cutback was pretty cool.....maybe X was 'too much too late'.

Thats exactly what happened, time and redundant elements caught up with them and B&M had more exciting inversion elements.

So what's my point? The point is that we've been riding the same B&M elements for a good 10 years now. How many flat spins and cobra rolls do I have to sit though untill I get sick. I'd really like to see something like the first inversion of the Batman side of The Chiller on a B&M rather than a Cobra Roll.

Anyway, if B&M doesn't change their designs(and maybe these design elements are what the parks want) they will follow in Arrows footsteps............maybe they'll go out with a bang and bring us their own "X" to the midwest.....then again, remember Arrows pipeline design....

Monday, October 18, 2004 5:50 PM
I predict more inversions like the jojo roll...
like, vertical loops taken at low speeds where you just baaaarely make it through. Or boomerangs where you feel like you're gonna get stopped in the valley...
Oh wait... Vekoma already has that on Deja Vu. Always the innovators.
Monday, October 18, 2004 5:51 PM
B&M will be fine. Look at Hydra for an example of a new B&M that is very original.
Monday, October 18, 2004 5:58 PM
;) Haha themedesigner thats a good one.

I think they need to try some of the crazy elements in floorless coasters like on Storm Runner.

Even so, they are the leader in looping rides, and they have a good safety record, and the rides are fun, and they've had steady business over the years.

Monday, October 18, 2004 5:58 PM
Or, is it that the transitions INTO the inversions are what doomed Arrow.

Some of Arrow's coasters became unrideable. I know of only 2 B&Ms that are basically unrideable. They're both standups.

B&M is the ONE coaster company that will be with us for the long haul.

Monday, October 18, 2004 6:00 PM
You're correct...B&M builds what parks ask for, not the other way around. And keep in mind they're about to open two of their most unique custom designs to date: Hydra and Silver Bullet.

IMHO the reason for B&M's dominance over Arrow is due simply to B&M having the superior product. There was nothing stopping Arrow from offering a dive loop, immelman, batwing, cobra roll, zero-g roll, or any other inversion that B&M made popular. Compare the design of Arrow's wheel assemblies and their track manufacturing techniques versus that of B&M and you have two good reasons why the Swiss do it better.

Just the way I see it....

Monday, October 18, 2004 6:03 PM
Parks stopped building the Arrow rides because everyone had one, not because the elements weren't unique. John Q. Public doesn't care if every park has a coaster with a corkscrew.
Monday, October 18, 2004 6:11 PM
^ Which is more the reason why B&M might have a limited lifespan yet to go - there are few parks that can afford one that don't have inverted coasters yet. Stand-ups are dead, most people seem to think flyers won't last, B&M's not usually the choice for hypers, they don't do launched ... their product line is limited and their market is shrinking. They'll either have something whiz-bang soon or they'll just fade while on top ... either way, I'll be happy.
Monday, October 18, 2004 6:29 PM
Not the choice for hypers? Says who?

Have you ridden any of them? They're engineering masterpieces. Pricey, but so are BMW's and Mercedes. People buy those.

Monday, October 18, 2004 6:43 PM
Georgia Scorcher was the last stand-up built, but G5 was built in 2000 and people swore that was the last of the dive machines. Now BGT is getting one.
Monday, October 18, 2004 6:50 PM
Well B&M wouldn't be my choice.

mOOSH's hypercoaster manufacture rankings, based on personal experience:

[manufac] - [# ridden]

1. Intamin - 3 [smooth ride, good transitions, excellent air.]

2. Morgan - 2 [high train center of gravity and wheel assembly design leads to the occasional rough transition. Good air.]

3. B&M - 3 [smooth, but often over-engineered into a "forceless" ride with lackluster air, as seen on Nitro and Bull; similar reports also from Silver Star. The ourstanding Apollo seems to be the exception to their rule.]

4. Arrow - 3 [bad transitions made worse by bad wheel assembly design and trains with high center of gravity. Sharp, painful air especially on bunnyhops.]

*** Edited 10/18/2004 10:52:00 PM UTC by Mamoosh***

Monday, October 18, 2004 7:04 PM
Depends what you like in airtime Moosh.

Raging Bull has plenty of "floater" air throughout its course and the first drop (sitting in the back) has some incredible ejector air.

While they may be forceless to the intensity driven coaster enthusiast, the B&M hypers are very popular with the average park goer.

Monday, October 18, 2004 7:08 PM
So are the Intamins...
Monday, October 18, 2004 7:22 PM
Heh. I dont know, I would take Phantom's Revenge over Appolo's Chariot and Nitro over Steel Force.

I think B&M have plenty of ideas for new types of coasters, when the market runs a little dry they will reveal it. You dont price your product high if it isnt desired and I dont see B&M going the way of Arrow since their rides dont give you whiplash.

Monday, October 18, 2004 8:17 PM
I doubt the B&M flyer is gone... Seen AIR? They can make a killer flyer if they were told too (AIR!). I think they will do fine IMO.
Monday, October 18, 2004 8:55 PM
Hey, I didn't say it was my preference, that's just my read of the "industry" types. Personally, I'll take Nitro over just about any coaster out there, pure bliss in a can ... or something like that.

I'm also a huge fan of Mantis and Kumba - "Beemers" make up most of my favorite coasters, but I just figured based on the rash of complaints from the people around here that B&M had sort of painted themselves into a corner.

Then again, I should know better than to trust the ramblings of an enthusiast ;)

Monday, October 18, 2004 9:55 PM
Pure bliss in a can... I like that.

As I've said before, Nitro is a surreal experience. The airtime is different from just about every other coaster I've ever ridden. I wouldn't say it's a forceless coaster, it just treats the rider to a type of airtime that is different from what most enthusiasts are used to.

If I want wild & forceful air, I'll ride a wood coaster- that's what they're for. I want a steel coaster to do something that a wood coaster can't do. Nitro succeeds at that.

Monday, October 18, 2004 10:27 PM
There will always be parks willing to invest the extra money needed in order to purchase a B&M ride instead of one manufactured by Intamin.

Work on a ride built by each of these companies for a summer and watch what daily issues (or lack thereof) arise during each's operation...there's much more to it than just what you see as a guest.

Monday, October 18, 2004 10:45 PM
B&M is just too good of a company to go out like that. With the newer technologies, the continual expansion of styles, new elements and new "twists" (pun intended), and whatnot, B&M will be just fine in the business. I love Beemers a lot...have never had a bad thing to say about them.
Tuesday, October 19, 2004 2:52 PM
The problem is: There is no truth in advertising...
BM is anything but s#@t!
They are the smoothest and they hold up well.

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