HADES, AVALANCHE, & MORE... got quality wood on an impromptu trip to Wisconsin Dells

Why would they have to build into the lift supports? That's what you're not getting.

Look at the transfer track on Nitro: http://www.rcdb.com/ig1106.htm?picture=3 . The train stops on the transfer table, the track shifts over, and the train backs onto the storage track via kicker tires (or pinch tires in the case of Raging Bull). Then the empy track shifts back to its operating position.

In other words, the track doesn't need to shift in both directions.

-Nate

That is the option of it going back over the end of the helix that I talked about earlier. The brake run is not that long. I guess I would have to look at it closer to see if there is enough room length-wise, but my impression there was that there was not. I guess it is possible or maybe the could build some kind of curve into it. Here is a pic of that area. The train takes up most of the brake run:

http://photobucket.com/albums/v295/raventtd/?action=view&current=100_0187.jpg *** Edited 6/28/2005 3:03:29 AM UTC by RavenTTD***

Or the storage track can be in front of the brake run (that is, once the transfer shifts over the train rolls forward into the storage track, not back).

Do you honestly think they built the ride without considering that option, especially given the fact that the park owner has said otherwise?

-Nate

In front of the brake run is the station. Rolling forward from there would put you on the exit platform.

Yes, I think they would have designed it a bit differently if they knew they were going to have a second train. This has nothing to do with my opinion of the park or TGG. You just have to look at the ride.

I still think it is possible to fix. Heck, you could build a McDonalds with Drive-Thru below the lift if you tried hard enough. It is just not ideal. It may be possible to put the transfer in the lift itself. Maybe if they just use thin steel rails, it can fit right in the support structure, and they can just remove a few supports to transfer in there. It would not take too much to reinforce that...I hope.

Just to echo Moosh.

Hades (and Zues) were designed to run 2 trains and to have transfer tracks added when needed. The transfer area would be where the brake run is before the roll-in to the station. I realize that it might look mighty high up on Hades, but if you look at the brake run you can see that it's completely set up to be altered and expanded.

It will be very obvious next year ;-)

Best,

Jim 'jimvid' McDonnell

Bridging the lift supports to allow for the storage/transfer table to slide under/into the lift hill is not very difficult at all. Nate's idea is a very viable option as well. And I do know for a fact that it was planned for in the design. jimvid is absolutely correct. Do you think that these guys would build themselves into a corner that they couldn't work themselves out of?

If the coaster was set up for a second train and the owner was expecting it to be world class, why open the coaster with only one train? Opening year is when high rider capacity will be needed the most. Nick himself pointed out that he thought Hades was the only new wooden coaster debuting this year. They shouldn't be surprised by the demand generated by this attraction.

The fact they opened with one train means they were not planning to need the second. Demand to ride Hades will probably be less of a draw next year. Zeus and Cyclopse have gotten by with just one train. So, I'd be surprised if the decision to add the second train has already been made.

Unless the plans for the second train is an indication of the park creating more of an attendance draw by adding more attractions in the future, thus a demand for higher rider capacity. *** Edited 6/28/2005 2:53:33 PM UTC by rc-madness***

The park is obviously playing it by ear. The lines have been shorter than walk ons for forever and now they have hour long waits over night. I think everything from new closing policies to new trains are decisions that are being made as needed. Keep in mind this is the park that changed their pricing structure about 5 or 6 times last season. They are growing very fast and this is their awkward phase.

The Legend opened with only one train, and so did the Raven. Now they both have two. It makes more sense to plan for the future and add on later if your attendance/money doesn't dictate it initially.

Both the Raven and Legend were not designed for 2 trains either. On Legend they had to put the transfer track after the station which is a bit unusal. On Raven they actually had to cut the ride a bit short to extend the brake run to add a block so they could run 2 trains. The transfer track is also after the station but not as awkward as Legend's. Coasters that get transfer track right away don't get designs like that normally. It is not the end of the world, but you can tell when it is part of the original design and when they are making do.

Villain, Boss, Ghostrider, Mean Streak, Racer, Beast, Predator, Great American Scream Machine (SFoG), and many others have transfer tables after the loading areas. It's not that unusual. True the Legend and Raven weren't initially built for two train operation, but space was always allotted for them in the future in the original design. Again, it makes no sense not to. *** Edited 6/28/2005 3:21:30 PM UTC by Thrillerman***

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RavenTTD said:
In front of the brake run is the station. Rolling forward from there would put you on the exit platform.

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No, that would put the transfer track next to the station. This is really quite a ridiculous argument when several reliable people have quoted the park owner as having said plenty of things contrary to your assessment.

-Nate

rc-madness asked:

If the coaster was set up for a second train and the owner was expecting it to be world class, why open the coaster with only one train?

I've already answered that a number of times in this thread: it was not within the park's budget to open with a second train this year.

The fact they opened with one train means they were not planning to need the second.

Dude, the OWNER OF THE PARK has SPOKEN about adding the second train. I've said so. Jimvid has said so. How many more people do you need to tell you for it to sink in that we're not just making this up?

ravenTDD said:

Both the Raven and Legend were not designed for 2 trains either.

You sure about that? You think its a happy coincidence that there just happened to be a nice stretch of flat track before Raven's lift where the transfer and storage has been added?

On Legend they had to put the transfer track after the station which is a bit unusal.

Mean Streak, Boss, and Villian both have transfer and storage tracks between the station and the lift. I'm sure I can name a few more if I did some research. Fact is it is NOT unusual.

You sure about that?

Yes.

You think its a happy coincidence that there just happened to be a nice stretch of flat track before Raven's lift where the transfer and storage has been added?

Yes.

There would have been another block that did not have cut the ride short if it was not a happy coincidence.

I am not doubting that the park is planning on adding a 2nd train now. I am doubting that that was the plan a year ago.

Transfer tables after the loading station? Not sure I understand because Hades drops straight down and out of the loading station. The track after the loading station will not be changed. The only place for a track redesign for a second coach will be the break run, and there is nothing obvious about how that will come about.

Nick or Mr. Laskaris asked what I thought of the coaster. When I told him it maybe one of the top ten in the world he looked totally disappointed. He said he had hoped it would be something better.

My sense is when he talked to the coaster designers he received some pretty convincing reassurances this coaster would be something pretty special. I doubt he is surprised by the amount of attention this coaster is getting. If anything he is disappointed it is not receiving more.

My theory is the addition of a second coach has more to do with larger park expansion plans. He seems very focused on beating Noah's Ark in attendance. If he succeeds Hades will have a second coach, maybe Zeus will need a second coach as well.

RavenTTD, I still take issue with you claiming that Raven was "cut short." You make it sound like they took a section of the ride out. It just stops 20-30 feet earlier so that the entire train can fit on the brake run outside the station. There were brakes there before, they just had to lengthen them for safety's sake.

I appologize if I offended you, redman. My point was not that the ride quality was affected, but that the original design was not for 2 trains.

Hey RavenTDD - I asked Paula today if the ride was designed at the outset to accomodate a second train, should the park decide to add one. Her response:

Hi Moosh—Yes, accommodations were made in the original design so that we could eventually add a second train. Paula

So, it seems you are wrong once again.

*** Edited 6/28/2005 8:35:52 PM UTC by Mamoosh***

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rc-madness said:
The only place for a track redesign for a second coach will be the break run, and there is nothing obvious about how that will come about.

Nick or Mr. Laskaris asked what I thought of the coaster. When I told him it maybe one of the top ten in the world he looked totally disappointed. He said he had hoped it would be something better.

My sense is when he talked to the coaster designers he received some pretty convincing reassurances this coaster would be something pretty special. I doubt he is surprised by the amount of attention this coaster is getting. If anything he is disappointed it is not receiving more.

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The space is there for the transfer table. Please rest assured it is, because this discussion about one never being in the future plans is bordering on rediculous now. Moosh and I, as well as a few others here know what we're talking about. All I can say is that a certain engineer told me so a long time ago when I inquired about it. He's my friend too, so I doubt he would lie to me about something like this.

I spoke with Nick briefly when I was there and told him how much I liked the coaster. He built something totally unique that's never been done before. The coaster has a little bit of everything built into it. Did anyone consider that the tunnel is like high speed jazz track that actually works? The ride is brilliant. I for one am very happy it was built. Who really cares if it slows down a little right now in two brief places. It's still going through it's breaking in period like Moosh and I have already said. I walked away from that ride shaking my head at how good it was the day (and night) I was there.

Awhile back I spoke with another engineer whom will remain nameless. He was complaining to me about how many enthusiasts rate rides on how much they get tossed about, rather than all the little nuances that a ride has built into it like pacing and liitle bumps and pops of air that surprise you when you don't expect it. It takes a lot of effort to design and build a great wooden coaster and keep it running well. They aren't supposed to do just one thing over and over again. They're supposed to tell a story.

RavTDD - First, some comments about Raven:

Raven used the station as the final brake run

No, it did not. The final brake run has ALWAYS been where it was. With a 1-train op trains did not need to stop fully in that brake run. With two it does.

...cut the ride short to add another train.

What part of the ride was cut short? The final bunny hop and entrance to the brake run did not change with the addidion of the second train. In fact the lift speed has been slowed giving Raven a LONGER ride time, not a shorter one.

My problem I have with you is threefold:

1] you fail to grasp simple concepts.
2] you've now called myself and Paula Werne liars after giving proof that Raven's ORIGINAL design included that flat stretch of track pre-lift where a transfer and storage for the second train would be built when the park felt it was time to add it.
3] you've also called Nick Laskaris a liar as well as others who have told you POINT BLANK what the park's plans for Hades is.

WTF is your problem?

*** Edited 6/29/2005 12:53:34 AM UTC by Mamoosh***