Gemini Love.... seatbelts?
Raven-Phile said:
Your airline comparison is severely flawed. It's not even close to the same thing.
It's close enough to the same thing to prove my point about dispatching a vehicle containing multiple people on a regular schedule. I swear you guys take comparisons way too literal.
All that is important in my comparison is that the amount of items being carried by the vehicle occupants directly affects the amount of time it takes to dispatch said vehicle.
If you load an airplane with guests carrying no luggage, it is guaranteed to be ready to depart sooner then a plane being loaded with guests carrying luggage (all other variables equal).
The same can be said about a roller coaster train. A Raptor train being loaded with guests not needing to pass through the train and deposit loose articles in the bins will be ready to dispatch sooner than a Raptor train being loaded with guests carrying loose articles (all other variables equal).
Plain and simple. It doesn't matter at all if people paid $900 to fly to LAX at 4:00pm on a Saturday in January for a business trip or people paid $40 to ride Raptor at Cedar Point on a sunny Saturday afternoon in August. It could very easily be argued that people pay good money to visit Cedar Point and should be guaranteed the most efficient and safe operation of all of their rides - which would include trains that "depart" safely and on a regular "schedule". But, that wasn't my point at all.
My author website: mgrantroberts.com
The only Arrow coaster that I know of that ever exceeded it's design capacity was Drachen Fire. And that was because
a) It had boosters in both ready and station, and
b) it used "mini blocks" in the station, so that as soon as the dispatched train cleared a brake, the following train started to move behind it.
The other common problem is when adding a train is assumed to increase capacity by the ratio of seats. Rarely happens. For instance if the 4th train had ever been put on FoF, the capacity actually would have decreased.
The longest block will frequently define your maximum capacity. Additionally, adding a train may lead to trains sitting around more, which takes capacity down.
My favorite way to model capacity was to put the block times into microsoft project, then use the linkages Project allows to model the block system. Then you can see whether adding another train really helps a ride.
Millennium Force avoids the dwell time issue because the train in waiting will actually start to move as soon as the one in unload does. They literally follow each other but it's primarily because they're running 3 trains with no midcourse.
One thing about Raptor I forgot to mention is that the drives in the station have been slowed down ALOT. Mantis comes to a sudden stop when in the station but Raptors wheels go really really slow before actually stopping, making capacity even worse.
MF in particular has to move all three trains at the same time for maximum efficiency. I seem to remember that in testing they had a hard time clearing the last block fast enough because the lift was so quick (that's why it speeds up near the top, because now the block behind unload is cleared).
Dragster and Maverick apparently can stack all of the trains with no real penalty, but Maverick had a good crew and seemed to keep things moving.
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
Gemini's problem is that when the ride was running six trains with no gates, no seat belts, and a really quick crew, it could move 3,400-3,600 theoretical PPH with no trouble at all. I've watched it happen, I've taken measurements of it happening...but in reality, if the trains were moving that quickly, the capacity wasn't always that high. The problem? People walking single file through a queue at a normal walking speed will arrive on the platform at a rate of about 2,400 PPH. Perhaps you can see why that might be a problem for a ride operating at 3,400 PPH! And that's why after its first year of operation, Gemini's station was reconfigured with the stairway added to the uptrack end of the station.
Maverick doesn't move people as fast as Gemini can, but for some reason...at least early in the season...the crew would frequently not let enough people into the station, with the result that seats were going empty because there simply wasn't anybody there to fill them.
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With regard to rides like Maverick and Dragster and Raptor and Millennium Force and Mantis:TCFKAB and even Gemini that appear to allow trains to run really close headways...
There are a few points to remember:
While The Rule is that you can only have one train in any block, there is no limit to the number of blocks that can be occupied by a single train. So if you divide the station up into a bunch of little blocks, you can keep the trains close together and still have only one train per block. Another way to do it (in fact I think this is the way B&M do it) is in a situation where you have synchronized drives moving the trains. You can cheat a little because you know that the trains are spaced apart, and you know that you are moving them together, so logically, you just slide the station blocks sideways down the track. It's kind of cheating, but you can get away with it in a portion of the ride where you have everything under direct control. Recall that Raptor doesn't even have brakes in the station, relying instead on the motion control from the drive motors.
The other idea is that once the train goes, it isn't coming back. This is how Gemini does it. The last years that Gemini ran six trains, many times I saw a pair of trains come flying in before the trains ahead had cleared out of the building. How could this work? Because the departing trains were clear of the station brakes. They could no longer be stopped and were on their way. It was cool to see, but a little bit frightening when you realize that the operator was modulating the stopping force by *opening* the brakes. The trains coming in were moving a whole lot faster than the trains going out, and if the operator were to allow the incoming trains to overshoot, they WOULD collide, probably on the transfer table. I don't know if there are any safeguards to force the brakes to close or prevent them from opening until the outbound train is past the first brake on the transfer table or not, but I don't think there are.
(Power&Control, are you feeling okay? You look like you're about to faint... :) )
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
May not be scary, depending on whether the train had cleared the "left front/right rear" block sensors. (the ones that face up).
If they had, then the train is allowed in. The operator can modulate the brakes until the train reaches the stop sensor (Usually the second in the quad, so the 3rd and 4th can act as redundant stops).
If the dispatched train had not passed the LF/RR sensors, then this would probably have been modified, as Dick Taylor and Jack Critchlow were pretty adamant about how block systems are to be done.
BTW, one of the things that has allowed some of the fancier move up functions is Variable Frequency Drives. With a VFD, it can determine that the motor is actually turning. If you know both sets of motors are turning, and you know the commanded speed, then that allows you to use that as information that the train separation is being maintained.
The block system becomes much more complicated when you do this, and it also adds criticality to components that normally are not critical.
Rideman - how was ASTM?
Anyway, it took me a moment..the LF/RR sensors you refer to kind of threw me until I remembered: on Gemini, they are cat's whisker switches tripped by little flags on the bottom of the train. It's the "face up" part that got me. Gemini is very 'old-school' with mechanical limit switches for check-in/check-out and optical sensors (where the lateral beam distance > distance between cars) I presume for presence detection. In fact, at certain times of the year, they apply auto polish to the front corners of Gemini's bumpers and then deliberately fail to buff it out. They do that so that sunlight at certain times of the day doesn't get reflected back to the optical sensors on the lift hill and confuse the safety system.
Knowing that it's really none of my business, why do I know half of this stuff??? :)
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
PKevin2004 said:They need to train raptor crews on magnum, then move them to raptor. when you HAVE to hit interval - you find ways to get guests moving faster and more organized, without being rude. ..its possible to hit interval on raptor - everyone has to be SPRINTING and be on top of it mentally, not sitting there waiting for a guest to come back to their seat, then mosey over and finish checking their seats. we did it for about a half hour in 2005 - that was a fun time.
You're right. However, you don't need to sprint to hit interval, it's the mental aspect that you're talking about which is so critical. When I worked on Raptor I nearly always had my seats checked and ready to go as the train was cresting the lift hill. The key is catching all of your guests with loose articles and the like BEFORE they sit down in the train.
As long as you catch everything before they pull that restraint down you should have no problems...it's the releasing of restraints that's really killer on that ride. Every time I ride Raptor I feel like the restraints are constantly being released...but I honestly cannot remember the last time the restrains were released on Magnum.
The one thing that was damaging for capacity was the policy by which you always had to check your seats in the same order. That would mean if your first two guests are busy dealing with the bins and you're other passengers are seated and ready to go, you cannot check those other seats until your slow group comes back. I understand where the policy is coming from, by checking your seats in the same order every time the idea is that you're less likely to make a mistake. That's totally understandable and it very well could be the Standard Operating Procedure outlined in the manual (I can't quite remember). I do think, however, that when you're only checking 3 or 2 rows it's really not that hard to check in whatever order is necessary. It forces you to stay alert while you're on the platform because you're always paying attention to the guests.
BTW, I also need to fully agree with halltd and his airplane analogy. Back in the beginning of '05 when CP had the absolutely no loose articles whatsoever policy, we were absolutely killing on numbers at Raptor. As soon as the loose articles came back our numbers plunged.
I'll never understand why the Raptor crews have been so slow as of late. I have to think it's mostly on the guests for just having all sorts of crap with them. I say that because I have tons of respect for the crews at CP and I know first hand how hard it is to work there. With that said, it 's really not that hard to hit interval on Raptor so if the crews are slacking they need to put in some moreeffort to run the Raptor well.
End rant.
RideMan said:Anyway, it took me a moment..the LF/RR sensors you refer to kind of threw me until I remembered: on Gemini, they are cat's whisker switches tripped by little flags on the bottom of the train. It's the "face up" part that got me. Gemini is very 'old-school' with mechanical limit switches for check-in/check-out and optical sensors
Knowing that it's really none of my business, why do I know half of this stuff??? :)--Dave Althoff, Jr.
Oops sorry. Hard for me to remember those antique system with relays and limit switches, since the former Paramount Parks replaced all of those with proximity switches and PLC's years ago. Some of the rides were upgraded twice, since Westinghouse decided to bow out of the PLC business.
Cedar Fair doesn't tend to run towards upgrades whether it be control systems or computers. It will be interesting to see how well they manage to implement gate central on their antique network. I know they couldn't run sharepoint.
The why of the knowledge is somewhat scary, but how do you chase down some of this information? Do you have a stack of ride manuals in your basement?
"Locker rides" like Mummy and Dueling Dragons at Universal move people like crazy (though the one day on Dragons the line guy wasn't watching for crap carriers very carefully). Getting the train loaded quickly is easy when people are crap-free.
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
It seems to be significantly faster than letting the guests do it, but it probably requires an extra operator or two.
One of the things to remember about Magnum is that it has something that Raptor does not: foot pedals on each car for opening the lap bars. Yes, I have seen operators grab the wheel to manually open the seats on Raptor (and I fear for their fingers every time I see it) but for the most part on Raptor you need to ask to have the bars released on a couple of seats unless you have a key in your pocket (Do they even still use those?). on Magnum, you just step on the pedal. So you don't see the lap bars being opened a lot on Magnum, but be assured, it happens quite frequently.
Power&Control--
Hey, why fix it if it isn't broke? Of course, when the PLC croaks, then what? Do you suppose Cedar Fair has spent the past 30 years buying all the used PLCs that Paramount has been flinging out just so that they'll have some spare parts? :)
Actually I have a very small collection of ride manuals, most of them electronic. But for the most part...no, not really. I just watch carefully when things are happening, and augment that with conversations with people like you... :)
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
One issue with some of these rides and people and such is that some of the crap that people carry with them is the crap that they amuse themselves with while they're standing in line for an hour.
What I don't understand is why you don't see rides with a little cut-off in the queue just before you get to the station. Take Millennium Force, for example...with modern locker systems, why couldn't there be a set of lockers positioned between the entrance ramp and the unloading station, said lockers equipped with doors on both sides. While waiting in line, just before entering the station (just before the special access gate) you stow your crap in the locker. You then ride the coaster, get off, and recover your stuff through the back door. Requires a lot fewer lockers, keeps people separated from their stuff for a shorter period of time, is in many ways more secure...of course the biggest problem with it (besides the fact that there really isn't enough space there the way it is configured right now...but you get the idea) is that to use double-sided lockers would require investing in a modern locker system, and we've already talked about Cedar Fair's investments in modern technology... :)
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
RideMan said:
Power&Control--
Hey, why fix it if it isn't broke? Of course, when the PLC croaks, then what? Do you suppose Cedar Fair has spent the past 30 years buying all the used PLCs that Paramount has been flinging out just so that they'll have some spare parts? :)
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
I don't think they think that far ahead. ;)
Talk about ancient.
The other side has a touch tone, though...
RideMan said:
Take Millennium Force, for example...with modern locker systems, why couldn't there be a set of lockers positioned between the entrance ramp and the unloading station, said lockers equipped with doors on both sides.
I could see this being an issue with people getting impatient waiting for people to add their crap. Ever try and buy a soda in line and it takes a little longer than you expected? People get fired up and can't wait to get around you.
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