Geauga Lake / Cedar Fair Improvements?

Thanks for the validation GIGAFORCE.

I don't like the Peanuts theming either. In general, I hate anything themed to any sort of pop-culture cartoon. I like my rides generic. Sticking a giant snoopy face on a ride just makes me feel like I'm watching an elaborate commercial.

Superheros are the worst though. It is just something I've never had the slightest thread of of interest in. Not to mention the sheer number of batman and superman rides that are not at all alike. It is difficult to tell them apart. Is this Batman a "ride" or an "ultimate flight" or whatever. Just call the dang thing the big yellow coaster and be done with it!

Maybe if parks themed their coasters after porn stars, that would be a better fit for you? :)

Ron Jeremy: The Ride

Jenna Jamison: The Escape

Dominique Simon: Ride of Steel

Anyone care to add? :)

Lord Gonchar: The Ride's Already Over, Get Off ;)

I don't like the superhero thing. Like millrace, it's just something I never dug. Plus I like coasters to have their own 'personality' - I'll take a generic cyclone or racer, but prefer a "Raptor" or a "Phantom's Revenge" or whatnot. Give the ride it's own life - don't slap a name and picture on a coaster and call it 'personality'

The superhero thing doesn't kill it for me, but the other examples certainly pique my interest (and imagination) on a totally superior level.

On the cartoon front, my kids barely recognize the looney tunes (I dare you to find them on TV - which is a f'n shame, really) and are familiar with Peanuts from the classic holiday specials. So in a head to head, peanuts do get the slightly less disinterested nod of the offspring.

But you know who has them beat hands down?

Paramount. My kids go apesh*t for Nickelodeon. Slap the Rugrats, Spongebob, Oddparents or whatever on something and they'll be there all day.

Agreed on the Paramount characters Gonch and my daughter eats it up as well. At least SF realizes this and are marketing some of it.

Don't agree on the Looney Tunes vs. Peanuts thing though. Bugs Bunny gets played alot out here (Chicago) along with the other Looney Tunes characters.

The Peanuts as you said only get showcased during the holidays and by that time, my daughter could care less.

I really don't understand not "digging" the superhero thing on coasters. For some reason, having the Batman theming along with the motion picture soundtrack piped in the batcave while waiting to ride gets me pumped along with my daughter.

By saying you have to have original theming, thats like saying you don't like cloned coasters. They can put a Batman the Ride clone in every SF park, and I would be content. I enjoyed my 10 power rides on Batman:TR at SF St. Louis even though I have been enjoying this inverted at SFGAm for the past 12 yesrs.

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Lord Gonchar said:
Lord Gonchar: The Ride's Already Over, Get Off

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Isn't that the point?;)

John Holmes: Power Tower

Okay, I'll stop now;).

how about a dark water ride called:
Linda Lovelace: Deep Float, the Ride! *** Edited 9/28/2004 1:12:38 PM UTC by FLYINGSCOOTER***

I could understand the superhero branding when it was a single type of ride. When the B&M inverted coaster first debuted, it was the perfect vehicle for the Batman theme- it had that onimous high-tech look about it. If there was ever a coaster deserving of the Batman theme, it was the B&M invert. By speading it to floorless, launched and flying coasters with minimal theming, that concept was quickly destroyed.

I'm with millrace and Gonch- unique coaster names are the ones that interest me. I still smile when I see a coaster called the Wildcat or the Jack Rabbit and I love it when new concepts are created specifically for a single coaster. Hydra, Talon, Cheetah, Cornball Express, Nitro, Great Nor'easter- all are unique and interesting in their own way.

I'm inclined to say that "Cedar Fair" theming is called homogonization. Its essentially the process of removing the quirky little details of the amusement park experience and replacing them with generic attributes that are offensive to no one. Cedar Fair makes decisions that put them out of reach of most criticism and that backfires because it keeps their parks bland and completely free of character and soul. I hope that they take a different route with Geauga Lake because that really is a beautiful park.

My biggest issue with the superhero themeing is the severe over-use of Batman and Superman naming by six flags. IOA uses the superhero theme with great success combining a truly themed area with uniquely named attractions. In a six flags park it is simply a generic naming scheme placed on an unthemed coaster (B:TR being the only exception). If I told you I wanted to go ride Hulk, Raptor, or Talon most people would know exactly what ride I was referring to. If on the other hand I said I want to ride Superman, you would have to ask "Which one". Of course, the same applies to Cyclone, Racer and a host of other generic names.

Rob, how can you say Cedar Fair theme is homogenizing when this debate started over the superhero theme at every Six Flags park? Every Six Flags park has Looney Tunes, Batman, Superman, and probably soon to be Mr Six. How's that not as homogenizing as a Coasters Restaurant, similar employee uniforms and a similar font on the logo?

Six Flags homogenizes things like ride names... Cedar Fair homogenizes entire parks. I can go to a park like SFOG and still see many traces of the park as it was in its early years... big shade trees, Monster Plantation, etc. SFWoA retained much of the atmosphere that it had when it was the old Geauga Lake. SFGAdv still allows you to take a stroll along a well-landscaped lake that is generally free of coasters and huge expanses of white concrete.

It seems to me that the "Cedar Fair" thing to do is to remove all traces of what a park once was. How many classic flat rides (aside from a carousel and a slow Racing Derby) does Cedar Point? How about darkrides? I walk through CP and find tons of coasters and tons of concrete. Dorney Park has lost a mill chute, a beautiful old coaster station and a wood coaster. Again, coasters and concrete. Worlds of Fun lost Zambezi Zinger and Orient Express. I haven't been there but I can guess what they have gained.

Coasters aren't a bad thing, but it seems that CF choses not to look at the things that once made their older properties unique, instead opting to sculpt each park to look the same and feel the same. Plus, one of the things that CF used to be known for- unique coaster names- is no longer a truth. Dominator, Steel Venom, Thunderhawk... those names are becoming just as annoying as Batman, Superman, Shockwave and Viper.

Six Flags homogenizes as well. Where did he say they didn't?

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Rob Ascough said:

Plus, one of the things that CF used to be known for- unique coaster names- is no longer a truth. Dominator, Steel Venom, Thunderhawk... those names are becoming just as annoying as Batman, Superman, Shockwave and Viper.

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Agreed 100%!

It seems to be some corporate identity thing. You can go to most SF parks and find Batman, Superman and Viper roller coasters. I can understand that to a degree even if I don't agree with or particularly like it.

CF seems to be starting to follow suit on that one. I think with GL it was deliberate attempt to associate the park with other CF parks to make the point that they aren't SF anymore.

1st Paragraph: Ever walk along the Frontier Trail at CP? How about back by Mean Streak, or along the walkways behind Breakers? Those are as devoid of "amusement park" feel as the path I believe you're referring to at GAdv. And last time I was there, there are no huge expanses of white concrete at GAdv - just huge expanses of dirty blacktop.

2nd Paragraph: How about Troika? Calypso? the "Monster" ride in back? Scrambler? Matterhorn? Demon Drop? Witches' Wheel? Those are just the higher-thrill ones to name a few. Why would they want to spend the money to maintain massive amounts of dark rides and flat rides? Those don't attract people, no matter how much you and millrace and SLFAKE and all the other "bring back the old days" people scream about it. You can't attract the kinds of numbers that CP and GAdv and all the larger parks get with just massive numbers of flat rides. Roller coasters bring in people. They're the marquee attractions. Even if you have a Delerium-style ride, most people would not spend their summer vacation money on a park that touts it's giant flat rides (which don't even fit into your definition of what's missing anyway) over one that touts 10+ coasters. And especially, no one's going to spend their vacation at a park that advertises its large number of slow, old, flat rides and dark rides (alone I'm talking about - I realize that done right, some parks have had success with these style rides, but again, not with those rides alone, and since those are mostly "new" rides anyway, they don't fit into your argument).

3rd Paragraph: last time I looked, there's only two, maybe three of each of those names within Cedar Fair and they were only tossed at GL because they needed merchandise and trademarked names in what, 22 days? Since we all have seen Hydra in the registry forever, it's obvious the names are generally planned way in advance to secure them, so it was impossible for them to fit unique names to each coaster. Saying you're tired of those names is absolutely ridiculous. Fine, I'm tired of hearing Cyclone, Twister, Racer, etc. Those are in more than 2 places, by your logic, shouldn't they be even more annoying and over-used?

I don't know what some of you have against the march of time, but you have to realize that old flat rides are not marketable (no one cares), they're not profitable (spare parts are hard to come by, let alone mechanics that understand the rides), and in light of the two above reasons, there's no reason to keep them around when your replacement options are virtually endless and can bring in bigger bucks by being more marketable, more thrilling, more modern, and more profitable.

Edit: I also enjoy a great, menacing coaster name, but I can also understand things like th GL situation where they needed names that they had merch sitting around for immediately and had to go to their "standards". Also, I believe discounting GL, every adult coaster in the chain has a different name (names are only repeated for flat rides)? *** Edited 9/28/2004 6:37:32 PM UTC by Impulse-ive***

Great... another person to tear every sentence of my posts apart. At least I can thank you for not quoting everything! I guess I'll have to play the game once again...

Frontier Trail is the LONE exception to the lack of atmosphere at CP. The aforementioned lakeside walkway, Frontier Adventures, the Giant Wheel midway and the area by Freefall and Chiller at SFGAdv are all full of beautiful trees and gorgeous gardens. Trees seem like an afterthought at CP unless you're talking about the island in the middle of the lagoon that can only be enjoyed while whizzing by at 70 mph on MF. And SFGAdv doesn't really have concrete or blacktop, they have pavers. Part of an ongoing effort to beautify the park instead of bringing in droves of cement mixers once the trees are turned into mulch.

Those are all relatively generic flat rides that you mention. Why is there no Whip? Darkride? Flying Scooters? Cuddle Up? If you admit that some parks have success with those kinds of rides, why wouldn't CP? All of those rides can still be purchased new or were built in enough numbers where many spare parts still exist. How about new flat rides like a Power Surge, Disk'O, Hawk, Frisbee or Top Scan? When was the last time that CP added a flat ride? I suppose that Indiana Beach was short-sighted because they added Air Crow this year? By your definition, that is not a marketable ride and is therefore doomed to be a financial failure for the park. I guess Tom Spackman should have consulted you when deciding upon what would work best for his park?

If I am one of those screaming "bring back the old days" people, I guess you are one of those that believes the key to a park's long-term longevity is coasters, coasters and nothing but coasters? And maybe a waterpark tossed in for good measure? Why is it so hard for some enthusiasts to realize that there is, and will always be, more to the amusement park experience than just gee-whiz coasters?

I mentioned the overuse of those names within Cedar Fair because it has all happened within the past few years, making me think that it is just the start of things to come. In my eyes, naming a flat ride, a wood coaster and an SLC "Thunderhawk" is silly. At least most Cyclones and Jack Rabbits have something in common. Besides, why is it ridiculous for me to say that I am tired of those names? I suppose that you are better at forming my opinion than I am?

I have nothing against the march of time and if you honestly feel that way, you have obviously just started reading my posts instead of paying attention to the things I've been saying on this site for the past four years. I like modern rides. I like steel coasters. I like theme parks. Zamperla's Power Surge, Reverchon's Crazy Mouse, Nitro and the WDW theme parks are among my favorite things. Just because I have a soft side for the classics doesn't mean that I failed to move into the 21st century with everyone else. It just means that I believe there are times when older rides are viable alternatives to newer ones, especially when you're speaking about marketability. MANY parks have had great success with integrating older rides into their roster of current attractions and I like to point that out to people that ignore that. That doesn't make me an idiot, nor does it make me blind or unrealistic. It makes me someone that thinks a little differently from the majority of people on this site. We can't all think that Cedar Fair can do no wrong and that more coasters will always equal a more satisfying amusement park experience. You can debate with me all you want but don't treat me (or anyone else) like a fool because they don't think exactly like you do.

But that's a moot point, as it seems that everyone on this site has suddenly become a marketing major lately. Makes me laugh...

*** Edited 9/28/2004 8:15:04 PM UTC by Rob Ascough***

The way I remember it the Giant Wheel midway is an annoying place where eight hundred different kinds of music are blasting from each game booth while the attendants try and scream over their music to get you to come play their games, not to mention that its the crossing point for everyone in the park, so very crowded. The Chiller midway is as noisy and "modern" as any midway at Cedar Point, maybe moreso than some. Reminds me of Dragster's midway, down to the launch coaster and drop ride and large crowds all within one long stretch - CP's ends in Coasters, GAdv's ends in an out-of-place German town.

Well if you can show me that Cedar Point had those rides in the past, then that's one mark against them, but since when has it been easy to get parts for these rides? I've only seen I think two whips in my travels to parks, one in my own backyard. The dark rides that are still successes are either in small parks, or are mega-attractions geared towards little kids (the Scooby rides from Sally). I can't think of one major dark ride at CP, GAdv, Hershey, or SFMM. Maybe I'm just missing something though.

CP didn't add flat rides because that's not what they were known for! Also, did you happen to miss Power Tower? While not really flat, it's not a coaster, so it has to "fall" into some category. They felt their best interest was coasters and that proved to be true. It's what they're known for, it's what brings in the people. Look at Canada's Wonderland - they went for flats glaore and last time I looked, they're a successful, but not mega-successful park.

I don't believe that it's coasters and nothing else that will keep a park going, but I believe that if you've established your niche as coasters, you better keep going with that. If Kennywood or Knoebels went coasters, coasters, coasters, they'd be done. They'd be up for sale and so far in debt it'd be crazy, because that's not what they're known for. But, if CP or GAdv went without coasters for a few years, I would be willing to bet attendance would slip considerably. There is more to a park than coasters, but if you've carved out your niche and you excel at it, leaving it because you're not providing the "full package" seems just dumb.

I called it ridiculous because you're assuming that the trend will continue when there's no evidence to support that. I didn't see you screaming when they used Thunderhawk a second time, and if you don't believe my reasons for throwing those names on GL than you must have more inside information than me because that seems to be the most logical.

Your appreciation for classics is fine, have your own thing, but it is often misplaced. GAdv, CP, SFMM, these parks are lost causes as far as classics. They're not anymore and will never be in the future parks that look like and feel like Knoebels with a few record-setting steel monsters around the perimeter of "happy land".

So you think you're the end-all of marketing strategy? Show me one park that has established itself as a large, mostly steel-coaster, modern ride park that has installed an older ride and been able to market it and bring in extra visitors because of it?

Rob Ascough, You cant compare Cedar Point with Indiana Beach. Seriously. Flat rides work for Indiana Beach, but Cedar Point's new flying carpet ride is not gonna draw thousands of new visitors. Be realistic.

The mass majority never make it to Dorney park and Geagua Lake in the same year, let alone link the names of the rides together. Its mostly enthusiast geeks like us who notice and get upset. *** Edited 9/28/2004 8:37:10 PM UTC by eightdotthree***

^Why don't more people realize your second paragraph *and* apply it to the Six Flags (even Paramount) parks as well? Or do enthusiasts know *so much more* about marketing than the pros now? ;)

+Danny, wrd to it

As long as Cedar Fair doesn't add the Peanuts characters to the GL logo, I'm happy!

Rides like X-flight, Villian, and Raging Wold Bobs stand out. Even Thunderhawk stands out because of it's logo. What I can't understand is that Dominator's logo(on GL's refillable cups) is blue, when the track colors are yellow/purple. The trains on Dominator are a mess, with them craving out the Batman logo. I can't see Cedar Fair leaving the trains in the condition there in.

eightdotthree: Before you shoot off your mouth and accuse me of being unrealistic, why don't you bother to read my entire post? I never said that flying scooters would work as well at CP as they do at a park like IB. All I did was ask why rides like that aren't part of the overall mix of rides at CP. And yes, it is enthusiast types (geeks like us ) that b**ch about names being reused... that's why we're on this site, remember? That's who we are and what we do.

Impuls-ive: The Giant Wheel midway is covered with big trees. I agree that the music and noise going back and forth can be annoying but I still think that area retains the feel of an old amusement park... or at least the "old" theme park that SFGAdv once was.

CP had lots of darkrides at one point. I honestly don't know their names or the years that they were there but CP did have them. As a classic traditional park, I'm sure they had many other old, classic rides as well. I can understand why some of them left- the same reason that the only operating Tumble Bug in the U.S. is at Kennywood- but there are probably others that didn't need to go. But rides like Whips... they are all over the place! Knoebels, Rye Playland, Hersheypark, Dorney Park (the one classic at the park that CF has yet to get rid of) are all parks within 2 1/2 hours of my door that have Whips. There are plenty more if you travel outside of that radius.

What's wrong with Sally darkrides? SFNO has one. The Paramount parks have them. So do Lake Compounce, Indiana Beach and Canobie Lake. They satisfy crowds whether they exist at mega theme parks or small traditional parks. They may be low capacity, so why not build two? A park like CP could certainly afford it with the spare change that they pick up off the ground underneath their coasters.

I'm not sure what Power Tower gets classified as so I'll give you that. But that is an exception and not the rule... the rule is that coasters are what CP is all about. And that is fine... it's their claim to fame! But how can you argue that there will soon come a day when CP builds all the coasters it can before guests start clamoring for something different? For the record, I don't think that Canada's Wonderland is a good example of how to add flat rides because they took that to the extreme... they did just the opposite of CP. I can't help but think that a major coaster in between 1999 and today would have done a lot for the park. I'm not saying that CP should give up on coasters and Canada's Wonderland give up on flats... I'm just saying that a little change of pace every now and then might be a good idea. Just because a business operates in a niche doesn't mean that it shouldn't occasionally investigate some other options.

I have no Geauga Lake inside information. All I know is that a few months ago, the park renamed their coasters with names that were used on other rides, much in the same way that SF has been doing for years. People have complained about SF doing that for years. Why is it okay to complain about SF but not CF? And considering that the "common name' thing has been employed these past two or three seasons, that gives me every right to assume that it will continue to happen. If WoF gets an Impulse, what are the chances that it will be named Steel Venom? Probably pretty good... or at least better than they were just a few years back. And yes, I did complain about WoF using the Thunderhawk name on something other than a wood coaster.

I don't feel that my thing for old rides is misplaced. I'm not unrealistic... I don't expect SF parks to add Tumble Bugs and Lusse Auto Skooters. But I do think that a top-tier park like CP should look at some kind of classics every now and then to add another dimension to their product. If the park added something like a steel coaster AND a darkride, what would be the harm in that? Do you really feel that a darkride would be a bad idea? If so, I'm curious to hear the reasons why.

I never claimed to have a bullet-proof marketing strategy... I just commented that a lot of people on this site seem to think that they do. And if you want me to point you in the direction of a modern park adding classic attractions, look at one of the most impressive amusement park success stories: Hersheypark. They've added wood coasters, a Whip, a ferris wheel, flying scooters and even fairground slides in between a B&M inverted coaster and an Intamin Rocket! You never hear anyone complain about Hershey's ride offering, whether they be families or thrill seekers... isn't that saying something?

But Hershey and Cedar Point have two different target audiences.

With two other large parks around, and three+ small parks they need to cater to a much different crowd and be more well rounded than Cedar Point does.

Cedar Point is advertising nationally and a new classic ride does nothing for them other than give them one more ride to maintain. I dont see the benefit. Who has time to ride the Whip when you have 16 coasters to get on in a day!

Even Waldameer sees the need to add new thrill rides like Spinning Dragons and Ravine Flyer to stay alive. *** Edited 9/28/2004 9:21:50 PM UTC by eightdotthree***