"Free lockers" editorial on local news site

Ok, so I'm thinking...what ARE the numbers?

I found this:

From 1975 to 2017, seat belts are estimated to have saved 374,276 lives.

That's less than 9000 people per year.

That is, as we like to say in these parts, a rounding error in the big picture.

As a level of protection, the number I'm finding is that a seatbelt decreases your chance of death by about 45% in an accident. It does nothing in the case of no accident. It is perfectly benign - in both directions - in that case.

Look, obviously strapping yourself to the speeding hunk of steel results in better outcomes should stuff go down. But, as GoBucks so eloquently put it, wouldn't not getting onto the speeding hunk of metal in the first place be the even safer course of action?

We all take that acceptable risk.

Somehow the next step (and those next 9000 people) is where the outrage comes.

Also, devil's advocate Gonch wants to know how many lives they didn't save over the same amount of time.

I am not suggesting that not wearing a seat belt leads to some high-probability catastrophic event. I am not trying to argue that you should be wearing a seat belt. I am only pointing out that the "it doesn't hurt anyone but me" line of argument is almost certainly not true. I write that as someone who once decided that drinking myself to death was okay because my kids had graduated and were out of the house and my life insurance policy would pay off the house and give my wife a nice nest egg.

I'm divorcing the wife, and she probably would rather see me dead. But the kids still (probably) care.

Lord Gonchar:

Some of the choices here seem more rooted in fear than most of my life choices.

Or rooted in "I don't find seatbelts to be even a negligible burden, so it does not cost anything to remove a few low-probability catastrophic events." I suspect your distaste twoards seatbelts has a lot less to do with what it physically feels like to wear one vs. what it means emotionally or cognitively to do so; I don't find the latter two a problem, so it's not a problem I have to solve.

Man it’s so radical we’re traveling back to the 80s, this is so radical! Seriously though, every safety system going back 50 years is predicted on keeping your body in place surrounded by a metal cage. The parts of the vehicle not part of that cage are designed to absorb energy to avoid transferring it to the cage. Your head is partially surrounded by small explosive devices designed to create a pillow to keep your head safe. All those things are for naught if your @$$ goes flying head first out a window, which is exactly what happens if you aren’t buckled. Talk about a major bummer man!

I drive a car without airbags. I can’t wait for a law requiring me to drive a car with them.

That's a specious concern, and not how automotive safety (or emissions) laws work. The government is content to let things play out over decades as the fleet turns over.

And when it comes to airbags, I suspect it is already the case that you cannot buy a new car that does not have them.

Brian Noble:

I suspect your distaste twoards seatbelts has a lot less to do with what it physically feels like to wear one vs. what it means emotionally or cognitively to do so

I'd tell you the opposite if you asked. I know because I still get into situations where I'm stuck (front seat of an Uber comes to mind) and it's really noticeable and in the way.

Which would be exactly my argument and leads me to:

"I don't find seatbelts to be even a negligible burden, so it does not cost anything to remove a few low-probability catastrophic events."

I don't find the risk to be enough to me (and please, that's certainly an invite for someone else to jump in with scary numbers and imagery) to worry about the seatbelt and what I perceive as the inconvenience of using it.

Again, I'm trying to find the scary hard numbers. But the truth is beyond a wide "it's generally safer to strap in than not" the numbers just aren't very scary to me - especially in the big picture.

The lack of seatbelt isn't going to be the death of me, trust me.

...

It'll be the fact that I was going 120 at the time that kills me. 😉

Lord Gonchar:

I'd tell you the opposite if you asked.

Of course you would! That's how humans work. Odd that I can never, not once, remember being stuck in a car with a seat belt though. Maybe I am just lucky. Or maybe "faulty memory" is one way in which my many years of metaphorical city miles show up.

The Nietzche in me says it's always emotional and cognitive, because that's how we experience reality, but we're getting pretty far afield from "lockers should be free (as in beer)."

For me, and I accept that this may in part be because of how I'm wired, it's just about what is factually observable. I believe so much of our societal and cultural failure is rooted in the fact that we often choose to ignore what is real. I have a T-shirt that says, "Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." I mean, going back four years...

GoBucks89:

Seems to me we all make our own assessments to a large degree.

...this is the rationale that people used not to adhere to some level of pandemic mitigation, or worse yet, "assess" that vaccination isn't necessary. And to Brian's point, few things we do are truly in a vacuum where our actions do not affect others. At the very least, there's a cost to the healthcare system, or at worst, some EMT has to pull your dead ass out of a wrecked car. And for what? Because your feelings (not logic) indicate you don't need a seatbelt? Is being a team player in the world really that much of a burden?

Thanks. You proved my point. Knew someone here would. And if I was putting down odds, you would have been the fav. LOL

Brian Noble:

Odd that I can never, not once, remember being stuck in a car with a seat belt though.

My fault for lack of clarity.

When I get stuck wearing one. Like forced to.

Jeff:
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion."

With data, you're just another person with data...and an opinion on how to use it.

Because your feelings (not logic) indicate you don't need a seatbelt?

Again, show me the numbers that are supposed to be scary.

From "seatbelts are generally safer" to your laundry list of burdens I put on society by not preparing for an event that will likely never occur is a solid jump. Bravo!

Is being a team player in the world really that much of a burden?

You really just typed that with what I presume is a straight face.

And if you're serious...

Yes.

At the very least, there's a cost to the healthcare system, or at worst, some EMT has to pull your dead ass out of a wrecked car.

I'm more likely to die from the stress of the stupidity of this coversation, so be a team player and let it go.

And that's sort of what I was getting at with the physical vs. emotional/cognitive point: This is at least in part a disagreement about whether and how much we owe consideration to others. This is a disagreement that plays out on the Buzz over and over, and it is pretty much the same people with the same positions.

This particular variant is complicated by the fact that for some of us there is literally no perceived cost to wearing a seat belt, and that makes it harder to grok the other POV and/or recognize that this is the same retread of an argument.

Fear has nothing to do with it. Numbers are numbers, not opinions. Unwillingness to consider others is a secondary concern. If wearing a seatbelt is burdensome, I want your problems.

Jeff:

If wearing a seatbelt is burdensome, I want your problems.

If not wearing a seatbelt is too scary, I'm glad I don't have yours.

Look, since nobody seems to be citing a single ****ing statistic, I'll try...because a broad wave of "it's safer with a seatbelt" is exactly the feel good crap you're accusing of. So...

Best I can find, the odds of dying in a car accident over the course of your life is 1-in-93. Wearing a seatbelt reduces my chance of dying in a car accident by 45%. Let's just use round numbers.

You have a 1% chance of dying in a car accident without a seatbelt.
You have a .5% chance of dying in a car accident with a seatbelt.

You're chiding me on an internet amusement park forum over my dismissal of a half of a percent change in risk in an activity that we all likely particiate in daily.

(and the reality, as you know from the Facebook Camaro mileage reports, is that I tend to drive a lot less overall than most people...making my personal risk even lower)

But yeah. I'm not going to apologize. I see no reason to. In the end, I'm saying that for me, the seatbelt (in whatever capacity) is more of a hassle than that .5% I'm gambling with.

And nothing anyone has said or shown is even close to making me worry about that incredibly small numerical, data-based difference.

So the statistics you mention unequivocally arrive at the conclusion that wearing a seatbelt is safer. Twice as safe, apparently.

You don't have to apologize, my ASD brain just finds your conclusions illogical. We also have insanely different views on what constitutes a "hassle."

I totally understand the people who refuse to wear a helmet or a seat belt, even if it's the law. I've heard the argument that the government shouldn't be mandating laws like that. I disagree, because safety is important, and in this case, I trust the science. However, I also totally get it. I think it's a valid argument.

Serious question. I wonder how many people ignore the signs, jump the inverted coaster fence to get a lost item, and DON'T get kicked in the head? We don't hear about the successes.

I think that the vast majority (if not all) of the people who are capable of retrieving dropped items without getting hurt either don't drop them in the first place or aren't dumb enough to try to retrieve them if they do.

I’m far from a fan of big government and attempting to govern people’s habits.

but a civilized society should have basic safety laws to help protect people from themselves.

RRR > Not wearing a seatbelt > entering a low clearance area.

I just want to say how much fun it is that Coasterbuzz is talking about this all over again.

Things have been f%#$ing out of whack since Covid, but it seems like things are finally back to normal.